Heavy Handed trait (breakdown inside)

#1Sin JackalPosted 10/22/2010 6:08:18 PM
I asked the guys on the PC board what the exact specs on it were, and they seem pretty good.

20% more damage, but 60% less critical damage. Not too bad.

Wall of text here breaking down the trait, for those interested.

The crit penalty sucks of course, but since you usually do far more regular hits than you do crits anyway, it shouldn't matter. Especially when the 60% isn't quite as high as it seems. Since you're also getting the bonus 20% damage from regular hit, and just the extra bonus for the crit is 60% less, not the total attack itself.


As a reference point, if you used the Fisto in Fallout 3 (40 damage with iron fist perks), that would be 48 damage per hit with Heavy Handed.

Now, a critical hit with Fisto did 65 damage. -60% crit would reduce that to 58 with Heavy Handed. If that sounds like bad math, this is how it works.

base damage (40) + crit damage (25, x 0.4 = 10) = 50 + (8 for Heavy Handed) = 58

So while your crit isn't as deadly, every single hit basically adds the damage you would lose for a single crit, unless the hit was a crit.

Making Heavy Handed an excellent trait with a very small drawback which is heavily outweighed by the trait itself.


Now, usually most weapons that have a crit, have a crit that does double the damage of a regular hit. Magnified more by the better criticals perk (which I assume is applied in contrast to the penalty, for a net total of -10% critical damage, if you grab that perk.)

So a weapon with 40 damage, usually has 40 crit for damage (sometimes it's 50% more, sometimes it's 100% more, sometimes it's 50% less).

so a 40 damage weapon with 40 crit does 80 with crit, 40 with normal, crit rate of say, 6-8% on your character for most builds + Finese = 11-13%, so we'll go with 12% for the math. That's one crit every 8.3 attacks. Of course, VATS adds 15% too, so that's 27%, about one in every 4 in VATS.

Okay, so, a weapon with 40/40, does 80 with crit.

In about 8 attacks outside of VATS, the total damage is 45.

With Heavy Handed, every hit does 48, which also doesn't account for the one crit, which ends up making it 50 for average damage.

Now, if you do all your hits in VATS, it's a different story, since one in every 4 crits.

When using all VATS attacks, you'd average 50 damage.

With Heavy Handed, it's 52 average damage. Still ahead.


With weapons that have less bonus crit damage than normal damage (blunt weapons like sledgehammers), Heavy handed completely destroys the average damage compared to non heavy handed.

Weapons with very large crit bonus% bonuses; however, have a larger DPS, as the above tables assume normal crit %. Any weapon above 2x normal crit rate, or 2x crit rate using attacks only in VATS, will out DPS a Heavy Handed trait user.

That said, the only weapon (with good damage) with greater than 2x crit multiplier for melee/unarmed last game was the Deathclaw Gauntlet. I don't know what the multiplier is this time. . .but that would probably be the only close range weapon that would be better without Heavy Handed than with.

Also, anyone who wondered if the Better Criticals perk has influence over the math, it doesn't. It adds bonus to the base value, not set value after Heavy Handed is applied, which means the additional damage is equal for players who did and didn't select the perk.

Long read, but perhaps this changed some people's minds on selecting the perk.
#2superdementoPosted 10/22/2010 6:12:05 PM
Well I chose ths perk and I''l tell you....I have never had such an easy time killing giant Radscorpions at level 3, even in FO3. Spiked knuckles + Heavy Handed = broken face carapace
#3superdementoPosted 10/22/2010 6:16:55 PM
OH wait you couldn't even meet a giant Radscorpion at level 3 in FO3. Wow this game is so much better.

Heavy Handed is awesome. My plan is to shun the critical hit modifiers I usually go for and instead just take other melee and unarmed perks like Purifyer, Piercing strike, Slayer and the new knockdown perk.
#4Sin Jackal(Topic Creator)Posted 10/22/2010 6:25:28 PM
By the way, for those that didn't want to read the wall of text, here's a basic breakdown using FO3 melee and unarmed weapons as measuring sticks.

Figures rounded.


Assuming character with 7 Luck and Finese perk (usual build for most players)

Weapons with 1x crit multiplier: 6.6% more average damage.

Weapons with 2x crit multiplier: 4% more average damage.

Weapons with 1x crit multiplier used in VATS: about 4% more damage

Weapons with 3x crit multiplier (rare): Equal average damage

Weapons with 5x crit multiplier (DG): 8% less damage. (This assumes DG still has the huge 5x multiplier, and has equal crit damage bonus to it's regular damage.)

In most cases, it adds bonus damage. In the case of the DG, it's inferior damage.

Also, Superdemento, you could very well grab Better Criticals and receive the exact same damage bonus you would've gotten if you didn't take Heavy Handed.

And of course. . .this trait becomes almost negated when you get the Ninja perk. With that, you basically assume every weapon gets an extra 1x crit modifier. So weapons with 2x modifier becomes basically the same damage as players not using Heavy Handed. Weapons with an only 1 or 1.5x modifier (most weapons) are still more powerful. Ones with 3x or better (Like DG), receive penalties to average damage with this trait.


So anyway, that's the whole breakdown of that perk. Basically good for everything but DG, and becomes somewhat negligable (but not a negative) once you get Ninja at level 20.
#5superdementoPosted 10/22/2010 6:37:56 PM
Well this is perfect for this character becuase she lacks sneakyness and is actually kind of blunt, like her fists. I think I'll focus totally on Explosives now and not worry about Sneak, Ninja, and Better Crits. Those other perks should keep her fisticuffs up to par. By level 20 I'll be a little more into missile launchers and better explosives(not to mention whatever fun guns I find) so unarmed and melee will take a second seat despite carrying me most of the game.

My second character will be all critical hit, high luck, Fast Shot and be into automatic weapons like SMG's, but also have melee(no unarmed this time!) and take advnatage of Ninja and Sneaking, unlike my future tyrant character...who sneaks for nothing. Noone. Never. well ok sometimes but only becuase she has a phobia of claws.
#6wolfy42Posted 10/22/2010 6:40:45 PM
Sin, your missing a few things.


First Ninja adds 15% to your crit chance (on top of VATS bonus) for unarmed and melee attacks.

Finess adds 5

And you should end up with a 10 int (9 base +1 implant)

Tons of h2h weapons adds crit chance but we won't factor those int.

There is a beret you can get fairly early that adds 5% chance to crit and later on....the armor that adds to crit chance isn't worth it.

Basic chance to crit with just the beret is 10+15+15+5+5 without adding in any bonuses from weapons. Add in 3% more if you took the Built to destroy trait as well. That ends up being a 53% chance to crit hit in Vats and a 38% chance to crit outside of VATS.

Now you take the increase in damage (50%) and multiply that by the chance to crit and you get a fixed increase in damage. In this case without counting weapon bonuses it's a 19% increase in damage on average outside of VATS and a 26.5% increase in VATS.

What isn't being factored in though is how well your hits go through DT when you crit...along with the huge # of crits. With piercing strike this is not as much of a factor....but high damage crits do hurt more on high DT enemies by far.

Also crits are multiplied after all other damage modifiers (including heavy handed).....but this also includes things like Center of masses 15% boost to damage, Bloody mess's 5% bonus, living anaotymy's 5% bonus,lord deaths 1% bonus etc.

The 20% bonus from heavy handed can get lost in there pretty easy....especially when you factor in the bonus you would get from taking a different trait instead of heavy handed!!

Taking Built to Destroy basically is better all around for a h2h build instead of heavy handed especially when you end up with a maxed luck.


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No duckies, just drowning.
#7superdementoPosted 10/22/2010 6:47:04 PM
Too many variables....Heavy Handed simplifies things, which is fitting for a character who just likes to punch their problems until they are gone! That beret just isn't my style.

I'm excited to see what Purifyer does to my punches on top of this. I mean, punching a Deathclaw into pieces sounds pretty satisfying.

I could slash the Explosives perks and just get the critical hit perks as well, but I feel that sicne I already have Heavy Handed it kind if allows me to vary my perk plan and branch out into other fields.
#8Sin Jackal(Topic Creator)Posted 10/22/2010 7:02:28 PM
Wolfy, Finese was added into the initial calculation, if you simply read the post., it's one of the very first things I even say.

Also, very few people start the game with 9 luck, I made the post for normal, good luck characters, who have 7. Even if you did have 9, the impact on the math calculations is minimial. The difference of 2-3 Luck would be roughly 1% on each account.

INT has nothing to do with crits., I'm not sure why you even brought that up.

I also made a post about Ninja, addressing that issue as well (my second post).


You're assuming way too much in your deductions too. You're assuming a player is using VATS for every single attack, and has maxed out Luck, while wearing a specific hat. A very pidgeonholed point, and players do not have infinite AP,while GRS does not work the same as before. . . so it's not a very applicable point either. No offense.

And I actually did account for VATS already, as that typically equates to adding a bonus of 1x crit multiplier to a weapon (+15% on top of 12-13% for norm characters). Or, Ninja without VATS, which adds the same bonus.

In the end, based on the math that I have given (you didn't even do the math yourself), a weapon with a 1x crit multiplier (which is most weapons), would HAVE to have both Ninja and be in VATS to break even with Heavy handed, as that would round up their crit chances to about equal to a 3x crit chance weapon, which breaks even in damage with a Heavy Handed user under the same circumstances.

A 2x crit chance weapon (uncommon), would do more damage with Ninja and Vats, and Finese and super high luck with beret, but the same damage with all that but not in VATS. Unless of course, it's a blunt weapon which has a lower bonus crit damage on it's weapons.


I also believe you're wrong in assuming Center of Mass modifies crit damage as well as normal damage. I think it only applies to normal damage, just like Yao Guai Meat and Psycho did in FO3 (neither effected crit damage%).

Also, even if that did effect crit damage%, as I have already covered earlier (apparently you failed to read this part too), it would increase the crit damage of a Heavy Handed user by the exact same amount, since it is applied to the base of the crit damage, but consecutively added to every other modifer.

By your logic, it's crit damage (we'll say 100 for math purposes) + x50% (better crit) which = 150, +15% which would = 172.5%. Rather than what it actually is. . .100 + (50+15) which = 165%.

In the case of Heavy Handed, it is 100 + (-60 + 50 + 15) = 105%.

The difference is still 60%, which equates into the same difference either way. Meaning it does not effect the math in any way.


So basically, as I have already covered, Heavy Handed does more damage under most circumstances besides when Ninja's added to the equation (something I already said), at which point the foundation is set for a non Heavy Handed user to surpass the damage when using non blunt weapons. DG being the only exception, as that would need nothing but Finese and decent luck to surpass the damage.


I didn't neglect to take anything into account, re-read my post dude. It's annoying to have to explain the same thing in different words just for it to make sense to someone who clearly didn't even read my whole post or even do the math himself, when I did a good enough job addressing it facets in the first place.
#9Sin Jackal(Topic Creator)Posted 10/22/2010 7:08:57 PM
Sorry demento, I tried to simplify it as best I could, but Wolfy is trying to make it convoluted and more difficult than it needs to be.

Basically, Heavy Handed is almost always better when:

Not using VATS (unless high crit modifier weapon, 3x or better)

You're using a blunt weapon (low crit damage)

You start out the game, up until you get Ninja (at which point some weapons are equal damage with and without, some are barely better, usually needing VATS to attain the tiny additional damage)


It's usually worse when:

Once you get Ninja, and attack in VATS (unless it's a normal crit% weapon, at which point it's equal damage)

Are using a weapon with very high crit modifier and using VATS

Are using a Deathclaw Gauntlet (with Finese)


Perks that increase crit% apply equal damage to strikes from players with and without the trait, so there's no reason to avoid them unless you would've done so anyway.
#10wolfy42Posted 10/22/2010 9:38:54 PM
Sin,

My response was to your first post (hence not reading any of the stuff you mentioned in the second). I was at work and it took awhile for me to send it through....so when I responded you had not mentioned ninja at all.


I didn't put the math in because I tried to make it easy to understand showing a simple base increase in damage that depends on your crit chance directly.

And crit damage multipliers are factored in after all other damage modifiers. This is easy to tell with guns (energy etc have direct damage boosts and you can see the effect from a crit) and still applies to unarmed and melee as well.

I was trying to explain that you can already get the 20% bonus from heavy handed with other perks (bloody mess etc) and that the crit multiplier is actually a huge deal especially in VATS.

As far as running out of AP that really isn't much of a problem late game at all. With a 10 agility (after implant) + action boy + Reaper (20 ap per kill) alone you'll have a freaking ton of attacks in Vats (were talking at least 10 on average with unarmed....which is significant even if you don't kill everything right away. Add in the use of cover etc and late game nerves of steal and you can fight in VATS all day if you want.

I was basically mentioning that going the crit route and taking built to destroy instead of heavy handed ends up being a better option long term and is comparable even early on. And thats without factoring in equipment even.

To take heavy handed your giving up 50% bonus damage from crits (multiplied after all other factors) and 3% chance to crit. For that your getting a 20% bonus to your base unarmed damage (increased before all other bonuses and as you mentioned that is factored in to the crit damage as well).

Built to destroy is better then heavy handed even if you only plan on fighting with unarmed combat (it also happens to boost all other forms of attack as well). Comparing the two directly you have the following.

Heavy handed gives +20% base h2h damage and -60% crit multiplier.

Built to destroy gives +3% crit chance (universal).

Net difference then is +3% more crit chance and 50% crit damage for built to destroy vs +20% base damage for heavy handed.

Built to destroy is better for all melee long term especially in VATS (which you can pretty much stay in constantly by the end of the game with the right perks......reaper is only 20 a pop now but it's still pretty crazy). It is also universal and works for all types of weapons (guns/energy weapons etc).....and it has the normal advantage of crits on limbs (more likely to disable limbs with a crit vs a normal swing) which should not be forgotten either....although it is true that heavy handed crits still retain the same bonus....you crit 3% more often though so it's an advantage.

Either works....if your ONLY going to use melee or unarmed for the entire game....then heavy handed is an option. I guess if you really wanted you could even take both heavy handed AND built to destroy although seriously ditching 50% of your crit bonus seems counterproductive in that case.

As far as luck...maybe many players will take a 7 luck the first time (I had a 6 the first time) but luck is far more useful in NV then in Fo3....and I think people starting with a 9 luck is going to be very common because of that.
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No duckies, just drowning.