A complaint I never understood about the series (specifically NV/Fallout 3)

#1Tryscal The GreatPosted 2/27/2013 4:58:11 PM
New Vegas is certainly one of my favorite entries in the series, and although I liked Fallout 3, I do recognize a lot of the criticisms levied against it. But one I never understood from a setting/world/writing perspective was the disbelief that the Capital Wasteland is still a savage, uncivilized, lawless place after 200 years, and the West Coast is relatively rebuilding rather well, with a democratic republic and several corners of civilization.

Many fans weren't able to reconcile the two coexisting in the same setting in the same span of time, but what's so unrealistic about it? Given the fact that a catastrophic world altering event effectively set civilization back so far and destroyed the environment, is it that unrealistic to assume that one part of the continent would demonstrate faster or slower recovery than another part, especially considering the unique dangers and challenges a post nuclear war could and would face?

There could be a number of pre/post War reasons sociologically, geographically, politically, and just pure fortune/misfortune that the West Coast is rebuilding and the Capital Wasteland is well, a wasteland. After all, such differences in development has certainly existed in the real world, and this is without a nuclear war to make things complicated.
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#2red255Posted 2/27/2013 6:12:35 PM
...not sure your comment I'd have to see the complain you are registering.

The problem people have with it, is its supposedly 1950's science for mutually assured destruction.

its not supposed to be CURRENT nuclear war fallout predictions.

and most of the complaints stem from not realizing that.
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#3sigma_1932Posted 2/28/2013 7:17:05 AM
Tryscal The Great posted...
Many fans weren't able to reconcile the two coexisting in the same setting in the same span of time, but what's so unrealistic about it? Given the fact that a catastrophic world altering event effectively set civilization back so far and destroyed the environment,

While some things were lost, the environment wasn't COMPLETELY destroyed. Much still remains... the weaponry, technology, much of the knowledge-base, philosophical concepts, etc. all remains, not to mention a signficant representation of the pre-war citizenry.

Pretty much everything needed to rebuild civilization was still around, and all that needed to be done was figure out how to apply it to the post-war world.

Tryscal The Great posted...
is it that unrealistic to assume that one part of the continent would demonstrate faster or slower recovery than another part, especially considering the unique dangers and challenges a post nuclear war could and would face?

If we were comparing, say, India to Russia or maybe even Mexico to Canada, it might be a reasonable assumption.

But that's not what's happening here.

Both the western region and the CW were born of the same established pre-war american society, so that eliminates any significant cultural or sociological differences.

Both were set in areas that were populated by multiple, heavily-metropolitan areas in relatively close proximity, so that eliminates any effects on culture that are directly related to general regional aspects.

The only real difference between the two regions is that the CW had access to vastly more pre-war information (i.e. the library, the museums, all the government buildings, etc.), while the west didn't, giving the CW a more favorable environment for cultural growth.

So, given that information, consider these two points:
1. The last vault opened in FO1, which took place 115 years prior to FO3.
2. The cultural state of the CW in FO3 is pretty much on par with that of FO1.

In other words, Bethesda expects us to believe that a culture ultimately born from a post-modern civilization that had developed much of the most advanced technology ever known to man, and has access to the most extensive collection of all-purpose knowledge still in existance, simply sat idle for 115+ years (the better part of 5 generations) and did ABOSLUTELY NOTHING to try to rebuild an orderly and interconnected human civilization... and then believe it with not even the slightest shred of an explaination as to why.

In short:
Players: "So, nothing in 115 years. Why not?"
FO3: "Because."
Players: "Lol. No, really, why not?"
FO3: "......."
Players: "[Call Shenanigans] Weaksauce, GTFO."

Meanwhile, the western region as a whole recovered as a civilization by leaps and bounds in nearly every aspect during that same timespan, successfully re-establishing widespread (i.e. covering territory equal in size to multiple states) commerce, humanitarian efforts, establishment of agriculture, and creating a centralized governmental body in order to create an orderly environment for greater prosperity as a society, the most recent events of which was seen in NV.

Tryscal The Great posted...
There could be a number of pre/post War reasons sociologically, geographically, politically, and just pure fortune/misfortune that the West Coast is rebuilding and the Capital Wasteland is well, a wasteland.

Sure, everyone can imagine all the reasons they want, but none of them matter if they're not in the game. In short, "what if's" are irrelavent.
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#4robokillPosted 2/28/2013 10:31:20 AM
I figured most of the technology was old because the Brotherhood of Steel literally goes around trying to find old technologies and restore them. I never got too much into the story but I just attributed everything being old to the Brotherhood of Steel
#5xanthan1Posted 2/28/2013 9:04:45 PM
Theres slow and theres "We haven't gotten a farm set up in 200 years" slow. The Capital Wasteland was a stupid place with alot of areas that made no sense.

Oh and ripping crap off from the older games without actually remembering to take the context that made anything they took make sense IE the Master having his Super Mutants takes people to become more mutants as he thought it was better for humanity. Take out everything before super mutant and after mutants and you got what they ripped off.
#6Crazyman93Posted 3/1/2013 1:20:28 AM
It does make some sense to me actually. The Capital Wasteland used to hold DC. DC is the capital of the US, ergo they'd of thrown more force at it then most of the rest of the world.
Sever the head and the snake shall die if you will. So there's that.

As for the Super Mutants, the Master is dead, and they're following the only way of life they know now that he's dead. They simply no longer have the ideals behind that way of life.
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#7squiggy9996999Posted 3/1/2013 9:44:51 AM
in my experience, most of the people i talk to who played NV first think that's the better game. same for those who played FO3. not sure how much of a factor it is.

MOST, not all.
#8ArkhamEscapeePosted 3/1/2013 6:06:32 PM
sigma_1932 posted...
The only real difference between the two regions is that the CW had access to vastly more pre-war information (i.e. the library, the museums, all the government buildings, etc.), while the west didn't, giving the CW a more favorable environment for cultural growth.

So, given that information, consider these two points:
1. The last vault opened in FO1, which took place 115 years prior to FO3.
2. The cultural state of the CW in FO3 is pretty much on par with that of FO1.

In other words, Bethesda expects us to believe that a culture ultimately born from a post-modern civilization that had developed much of the most advanced technology ever known to man, and has access to the most extensive collection of all-purpose knowledge still in existance, simply sat idle for 115+ years (the better part of 5 generations) and did ABOSLUTELY NOTHING to try to rebuild an orderly and interconnected human civilization... and then believe it with not even the slightest shred of an explaination as to why.


This, basically.

And that's not even getting into the fact that the social structures we see developed in Fallout 3 make no sense. For example: we've got all these little towns that just sort of do their own things, with no sense of unity/centralization at all. Make all the excuses you want, but that just doesn't make sense. Particularly given that the Capital Wasteland seems more dangerous than most of the West Coast. But do they do anything about it? Nope, they just sit there and remain isolated. This isn't even taking into account people who just live off in the middle of nowhere by themselves.

The worst part is that the infrastructure clearly exists for a more united Capital Wasteland (hell, Three Dog gets information from all over the Wasteland) but everyone just seems to ignore it.

Basically, the state of the Capital Wasteland just doesn't make sense.
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#9sigma_1932Posted 3/2/2013 1:57:12 AM
robokill posted...
I figured most of the technology was old because the Brotherhood of Steel literally goes around trying to find old technologies and restore them. I never got too much into the story but I just attributed everything being old to the Brotherhood of Steel

Everything the Brotherhood of Steel has is pre-war technology. Power Armor, energy weapons, the giant plot-device robot... it's all from the pre-war era. Even the Brotherhood's founder was a US Army captain who was still actively serving at the time the bombs dropped.

If they have anything more advanced than what there was pre-war, its a good bet that its really just a variation, upgrade, or some other retro-fit of the basic design from pre-war times, so in a way it's all "old" technology, but it's also the "newest" there is.

As far as the Brotherhood's philosophical motivation goes, they're a xenophobic, fanatical techno-religious group that seeks out ANY technology, old or new, so they can restore, preserve, and study it while protecting it from people who, regardless of their intentions (good or bad), don't know how to handle it properly... and from their POV, that's anyone but them.

Crazyman93 posted...
It does make some sense to me actually. The Capital Wasteland used to hold DC. DC is the capital of the US, ergo they'd of thrown more force at it then most of the rest of the world.
Sever the head and the snake shall die if you will. So there's that.

And as a likely target for heavy bombardment, they also would've had increased defensive measures to limit the effects of that bombardment.

Also, if it got hit that much harder than anywhere else, it would've been hit by enough force to at least level every single above-ground structure, which wasn't the case considering there are still wooden houses standing all over the place.

Finally, if the CW suffered a more thorough bombardment than other areas, that means there wouldn't be any or at most very few normal humans in the CW because they'd all have moved on, be dead, or be ghoulified due to wandering a wasteland with particularly high concentrations of radiation for a minimum of 115 years (though more like 150+).

As for the Super Mutants, the Master is dead, and they're following the only way of life they know now that he's dead. They simply no longer have the ideals behind that way of life.

The Vault 87 muties aren't connected to the muties from Mariposa. They were created from an entirely seperate and inferior strain of FEV to that used at Mariposa, in an entirely seperate experiment, by a completely seperate company. They don't have the same mentality, nor physiology, and never had any remote contact with the Master, even by proxy through other mutants.

That aside, they also have no central "leader" directing them, and "being dipped" doesn't play any major role in the game, even in sidequests. So, basically, that means they're just there to be a generic threat with no actual motivation or purpose except to be used as a marketing gimmick. In short, Bethesda retro-fitted a generic story in an attempt to make their spinoff in DC fit the previously-established Fallout lore so they could dupe more customers because "Look! Soopar Mewtintz! Iz Fallout to the max!"
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#10red255Posted 3/2/2013 8:42:53 AM
xanthan1 posted...
Theres slow and theres "We haven't gotten a farm set up in 200 years" slow. The Capital Wasteland was a stupid place with alot of areas that made no sense.

Oh and ripping crap off from the older games without actually remembering to take the context that made anything they took make sense IE the Master having his Super Mutants takes people to become more mutants as he thought it was better for humanity. Take out everything before super mutant and after mutants and you got what they ripped off.


...? CW was the capitol, it was actually harder to believe there was ANYTHING left.
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If the next one is called, because of his MO, the underwear bomber, you'll know I'm on to something. Calvin Trillin June 16, 2006.