"Thief will do away with the magical elements......"

#11HappyMrSnowmanPosted 3/14/2013 12:48:56 AM
As far as toning down of magic goes, consider the ending of Deadly Shadows


SPOILORZ


With Garret restoring balance to the City once again, and ending Glyphs, magic all but disappears. In fact, the main enemy in the upcoming game seems to be the City guard. Well that would be the LAST faction. We've dealt with Pagans in the first game. Dealt with Mechanicts/Hammers in the second. Dealt with Keepers in the third. The forces of nature, machinery, and magic have all be equalized.

The last force left is that of the law, abused by the city. Sounds pretty legit. That isn't to say I'm not WARY of what they're doing. I'm just taking it in stride.

Think about how much of a change Deadly Shadows was from the previous games. But there's no denying it wasn't good or satisfying to play. Sure, there were some changes, and some weren't so good. But the openness of the city was a good addition (IMO) and the levels continued to be interesting and the story engaging. Have a bit of faith here guys.
---
Stalker Clear Sky isn't a game. Its a virus - PapaTak when asked his opinions of STCS.
#12Bumble_Posted 3/15/2013 7:19:43 AM(edited)
HappyMrSnowman posted...
As far as toning down of magic goes, consider the ending of Deadly Shadows

With Garret restoring balance to the City once again, and ending Glyphs, magic all but disappears.


You are right about reduction of magic potentially being explainable somewhat with Garrett activating the final glyph at the end of DS. However, from what I remember, I think undead and such are frequently product of pagan magic (Cathedral area for example apparently), and I don't think it is tied to use of glyphs and as such, should still function normally. Obviously cannot be exactly 100% sure, but just kinda the impression I've gotten. Also sometimes hauntings seem to be occurring what, in Thief world, would probably be considered "naturally" Just by having grim s*** happen that taints the area/place. Cradle for example. I don't think there is really any specific magic involved with such cases.

Anyway... In my opinion, even when keeping the events of DS in mind, there does not seem to be sufficient evidence that removal of the glyph magic should really affect things like undead at all in Thief world. But, it (or something along the lines) would certainly still be a preferable explanation to an unexplained whim of the new developers, that is not clarified in any way in the game. As it would at least acknowledge events from previous games.

Think about how much of a change Deadly Shadows was from the previous games. But there's no denying it wasn't good or satisfying to play. Sure, there were some changes, and some weren't so good. But the openness of the city was a good addition (IMO) and the levels continued to be interesting and the story engaging. Have a bit of faith here guys.


Sure DS wasn't a bad game either. Being able to stroll the city outside of missions, or in your way to one, was nice touch in my opinion too. However, I did always feel that DS was inferior to first two games.

It's nice to have faith as they say. For my own part though, I must say that given how extremely rare it seems to be for these reboots, spiritual successors, and modern day sequels to actually prove to be a better game than the ones that came before... Don't have that much faith left. But I would most certainly be thrilled, if this game would turn out to be great... Fingers crossed. I'm sure greater miracles have happened! ... I think :).

What annoys me a little with the "positive" crew, that they often go on about along the lines of: "Times are different buddy. Deal with it!" or "You are elitist and just expect too much!". Yeah... In this case, I would expect, that they'd manage to make a better game (or even just as good) as Thief: Dark Project, for example. Which came to sale in... Oh about 15 years ago. But! Such grand amount of expectation, is of course totally unreasonable, I'm sure :). In these days of vastly superior computer tech, budget that is 100 to 1000 times what is was during the days of T1 & T2 and still way more often than not, modern day developers fail to make a better game. Which is, of course completely & utterly ridiculous. But also sadly frequently true... Hence the lack of faith... We are not doomsaying here entirely without cause you know :).
#13HappyMrSnowmanPosted 3/15/2013 6:21:15 PM
Bumble_ posted...


What annoys me a little with the "positive" crew, that they often go on about along the lines of: "Times are different buddy. Deal with it!" or "You are elitist and just expect too much!". Yeah... In this case, I would expect, that they'd manage to make a better game (or even just as good) as Thief: Dark Project, for example. Which came to sale in... Oh about 15 years ago. But! Such grand amount of expectation, is of course totally unreasonable, I'm sure :). In these days of vastly superior computer tech, budget that is 100 to 1000 times what is was during the days of T1 & T2 and still way more often than not, modern day developers fail to make a better game. Which is, of course completely & utterly ridiculous. But also sadly frequently true... Hence the lack of faith... We are not doomsaying here entirely without cause you know :).


I'm actually playing through the trilogy right now, again, just to enjoy it one more time. I'm on Shoalsgate Station atm.

But to address something you said, Thief 1 and 2 were great games, but they were by no means comparable to modern games. They did many things modern games, but 15 years ago. They had great big open levels, mantling (THIS IS A BIG ONE, GAMES NOT HAVING THIS NOW MAKES ME RAGESQUID TO INFINITY), physics engine etc etc etc. They did a lot right, but in hindsight there was also a lot wrong.

In the first two games you could shoot a guard IN THE FACE with a water arrow and they wouldn't care. They wouldnt care about opening doors or chests. But they would come running if they heard footsteps, despite there being 20 other guards nearby. This comes down to AI, but lets not act like there is nothing that the Thief games need to improve on.

You know what? Playing through the games now, I abuse the quicksave/quickload function. Why? Because in 2002, my computer couldn't load pancakes. When you had to reload a save in T1 or T2, it took forever and you didn;t want to do it. So you played the game with an artificial difficulty. A difficulty we all find endearing now, and enjoyed at the time, but it is no longer the case. If you make a game without quicksave now, you're a fascist, if you make a stealth game WITH quickload, you can save scum.

What made those games so great was a strong story, good level design and solid gameplay. You could still knockout every guard like a bodysnatcher, or be the Butcher with your sword (unless you played on expert).

The BASIC fundamentals of Thief aren't hard to grasp.
Have a good setting (already done).
Have a good main character (already done)
Have nice graphics (easily doable) - Before anyone nails me here, I want to point out, the Thief games all had AWESOME graphics for their time. And even now, the graphics have aged well. A Thief game HAS to be good looking IMO.
Have well laid out levels (Doable)

Now we get into the things where they could botch it:
Have a stealth focused gameplay with little/no action focus
Have a strong story. (they already have the setting, but if they don't honor it, its doomed)
Have a mission driven gameplay. This I think is somewhat critical to Thief. The biggest mistake they could make would be to make it open ended or sandbox. Thief 3 had you run around, but it was to get around the city to get to the good bits. Dishonored has you get to your operating area, but its to further the story. If they choose to make the new Thief open ended, its boned. It's going to be competing with games like Assassin's Creed, and NOONE will be able to see past that.
---
Stalker Clear Sky isn't a game. Its a virus - PapaTak when asked his opinions of STCS.
#14Bumble_Posted 3/15/2013 10:31:08 PM(edited)
HappyMrSnowman posted...
But to address something you said, Thief 1 and 2 were great games, but they were by no means comparable to modern games. They did many things modern games, but 15 years ago. They had great big open levels, mantling (THIS IS A BIG ONE, GAMES NOT HAVING THIS NOW MAKES ME RAGESQUID TO INFINITY), physics engine etc etc etc. They did a lot right, but in hindsight there was also a lot wrong.

In the first two games you could shoot a guard IN THE FACE with a water arrow and they wouldn't care. They wouldnt care about opening doors or chests. But they would come running if they heard footsteps, despite there being 20 other guards nearby. This comes down to AI, but lets not act like there is nothing that the Thief games need to improve on.

snip


Graphics and AI are often things that show game's age the most. Though, the AI in T1 & T2 was always considered bit silly. I think even in their respective times it was mentioned :). As for having the mission entirely on one area. Well, to be honest that part in DS never bothered me all that much. Mostly an inconvenience occasionally, but as long as it's not happening every minute doubt anyone will hate the game because of it :).

I don't think anyone ever said T1 & T2 were "perfect", and that they did everything right. AI that could make guard walk straight at you, as in to bump Garrett in the shadows and not still not notice him. That's obviously kinda bad, yeah. Also guards being automatically able to distinguish Garrett's footsteps from many others etc. was silly, sure.

Graphics are obviously going to improve. AI, more than likely will too. But as previous games having a bit silly AI didn't make them bad games, neither is having great AI in the new game going to save it, if they fail to otherwise capture that hm... "Being there" feeling, you could say, you always had in Thief games. Among other things...

The BASIC fundamentals of Thief aren't hard to grasp.


Uh-huh. We'll just have to hope they manage to, wont we :)? It's not all that difficult to see what made the previous game/s great in many series. Yet, modern day developers fail anyway. Such are the times.

It's bit like Metal Age, eh :)? Tech has improved, but focus is often all wrong. So, it wont matter to anyone who is not a moron, that it looks better, has better AI etc. It's still not a better game. With this particular one, the very real concern would be to have it reduced to some wannabe AC clone. In that case, it would even be likely that it wont matter, if story is still solid and lore is respected. It's not a "Thief" game anymore, period. And as such has failed to live up to what these games were supposed to be about. I don't want to feel, like I'm playing a game from entirely different franchise, that's one of those horribly unreasonable expectations too :).

But! I sure hope that your "faith" will be vindicated, and these concerns of mine prove to have been unwarranted. It's better to everyone that way :).