Something I don't get about the story (big spoilers)

#1AyumiSqueezetoyPosted 6/1/2010 10:43:01 AM
If it's all explained in ending C/D, then just let me know...

Nier needs 5 keys to get into the Shadowlord's castle. But why? Why do these other shades have them? Doesn't Shadowlord WANT Nier's body? And why do Popola and Crazy Joe Devola help Nier, only to stop him at the end?

My best guess is that Shadowlord is promoting the training of the body so that he can have the most powerful body to protect Yonah, but that seems a bit.. weak. And do the twins half-heartedly try to stop Nier because they've grown fond of him? I guess that would explain leaking the documents to him. Or are they the final test? if so, why does the other try to kill him in earnest when one of them dies?

Also, I wasn't sure.. but since there are so few shells and so many shades, was Shadowlord trying to use Nier to reduce the number of shades that would compete for the bodies?

It's such a good story, but I'm just having trouble seeing if there are strong reasons for these other than "so there's a game to play"...

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"Do you really want to fight an army of vampires?"
"Since I was 12 years old."
#2ultimatefatPosted 6/1/2010 12:39:01 PM
They actually wanted him to kill shades. Remember that shades are basically people like the shadowlord, a lot of them are incomplete transformations and dangerous, and the ones that attack the replicants AREN'T supposed to. Why would humanity attack the shells it's going to need eventually?

The Shadowlord hoped that by getting him to assemble the key he would kill off enough rogue shades to make them more manageable. Problem is he started killing more than those...
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"I AM YOUR MOM AND I JUST TOOK YOU TO SCHOOL IN THE CAR OF PAIN. SAY IT"
#3Martin PaganPosted 6/1/2010 2:10:32 PM
Yyyyeah, it also seemed to me that the key pieces were more of a game mechanic to make you visit all those locations again than a plot device.

Why was the key broken into pieces in the first place when the castle is protected by two such powerful guardians as D&P?

Who broke the key?

How did the shades end up with pieces of the key?

Maybe the Grimoire Nier book answers those questions.
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'Sonny, what's the name of that nasty German who keeps hiding my stuff from me?'
'Alzheimer, grandpa.'
#4gisaellePosted 6/1/2010 3:14:10 PM
@AyumiSqueezetoy
I have no idea why the shades have parts of the key, but with regards to Shadowlord and his intention it was sorta answered in the Grimoire Nier. (I'm just taking things out of my head from what I can remember, so they may not be 100% accurate, and please don't yell at me if it's inaccurate :p)

IIRC, it was mentioned that once the scientists realized that gestalt!Nier (not to be confused with father!Nier) is the first successful case, and they knew gestalt!Yonah is not as successful as her brother/father, the Hamelin Organization (and its associates) offered gestalt!Nier a deal. The deal is that, they'll put Yonah in cryogenics a thousand years for free (so that when she wakes up, she'll be in a world where all malice are purged), but in return, gestalt!Nier has to provide the element which stabilizes all the unsuccessful gestalts (and I think this is why he's called a Shadowlord).

1000 years later or so, gestalt!Nier realized the gestalts aren't and won't be able to enter their vessels, because contrary to "the plan" the replicants developed their own sentience. Realizing this, gestalt!Nier knows that he'll never be able to see Yonah, so he gradually withdraws his supply, and the gestalts are going crazy attacking the replicants. At the same time, gestalt!Nier is planning to do whatever it takes to take his replicant as well as Yonah's so they could fuse together and become "human" again.

Since it's not the time for gestalts to fuse back into their vessels yet, Devola and Popola has no way but to help gestalt!Nier because without gestalt!Nier's supply, all the other unsuccessful gestalts will go crazy. (If a person's gestalt is dead, the said person's replicant will get the black scrawl disease and die eventually.) And because the goal of the Gestalt Project is to revive humanity in general, Devola and Popola probably has to push forward their plan "a 100 years earlier".

In summary, I think it's because gestalt!Nier's withdrawal leaves Devola and Popola no choice that helping him is the best card they could play, instead of risking having all gestalts dead and the replicants damaged (or without a soul) in the case both decided to have a full blown war). So the twins probably guided replicant!Nier to obtain Grimoire Weiss in order to initiate the plan. (It's not clear whether the twins realized they may be jeopardizing the whole plan by leading replicant!Nier to Grimoire Weiss.)

In the last short story from Grimoire Nier, it was sorta assumed that the "world" you see on Nier's map is only a fraction of the whole world. There are other districts that are governed under a similar system. But it's not known whether there are other successful cases like gestalt!Nier that supplies the element to stabilize other gestalts. If not, then it's the end of the world lol.
#5trunks0709Posted 6/1/2010 10:28:36 PM
I assumed that he didnt take nier's body 5 years earlier, because it wasn't strong enough to handle his shade. By forcing him to kill the 5 powerful shades, he would assure himself that nier's body was strong enough. Popola and Devola helped him because the shadowlord wanted them to.
#6Martin PaganPosted 6/2/2010 12:22:03 AM
Not all of the shades are powerful. See Kalil who is probably a shade of a 7 year old child protected by a powerful robot. Also, are Hansel and Gretel shades or some sort of robots?

I am wondering whether the Grimoire Nier says anything about the nature of the Black Scrawl. We've had many theories about it but you are saying that a replicant can get the black scrawl when his or her gestalt dies while we've theorised that the Black Scrawl is the visual manifestation of the gestalt/reimplantation process being initiated.
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'Sonny, what's the name of that nasty German who keeps hiding my stuff from me?'
'Alzheimer, grandpa.'
#7gisaellePosted 6/2/2010 3:27:41 AM
@Martin Pagan
According to Grimoire Nier, Hansel and Gretel are shades.

As for the black scrawl part, it wasn't "explicitly" explained in detail, rather it was sorta talked about in different parts of Grimoire Nier. Basically what GN says is that, the infestation of the black scrawl is an error which the programmers of Project Gestalt didn't foresee, and it happens when the gestalt breaks down. Not all gestalts breakdown ASAP when they're turned, but eventually with time, they will start to breakdown unless they get those element supplement from the successful case gestalt!Nier.
^From the timeline pages

In Yonah's case, since she is a failed gestalt since the very beginning, whatever data that is taken out of her to make her vessel is pretty much expected to be plagued by the black scrawl.
^From the abyss of Nier Project Vol1 under Yonah's entry

And then in somewhere else (I forgot where, sorry, but probably from some interview) that based on what was said above, an indirect/ambiguous relationship could be drawn that the lack of gestalt for a vessel could eventually led the vessel to breakdown in the manner of black scrawl.
#8Martin PaganPosted 6/2/2010 3:36:49 AM
Mind = blown

There is so much background to this game it's incredible.
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'Sonny, what's the name of that nasty German who keeps hiding my stuff from me?'
'Alzheimer, grandpa.'
#9DunanBubbaPosted 6/2/2010 6:10:37 AM
IIRC, it was mentioned that once the scientists realized that gestalt!Nier (not to be confused with father!Nier) is the first successful case, and they knew gestalt!Yonah is not as successful as her brother/father, the Hamelin Organization (and its associates) offered gestalt!Nier a deal. The deal is that, they'll put Yonah in cryogenics a thousand years for free (so that when she wakes up, she'll be in a world where all malice are purged), but in return, gestalt!Nier has to provide the element which stabilizes all the unsuccessful gestalts (and I think this is why he's called a Shadowlord).

Gisaelle, I'm actually translating that part right now, and am wondering: is the word "maso" ("ma" meaning magical or demonic + "so" meaning element or base) used in the actual game, and if so, what's the established English word for it? I'm kind of stuck trying to translate this term.

I'm only on the B playthrough, so forgive me if it's mentioned a lot in later endings.

DB
#10YuugurePosted 6/2/2010 7:11:46 AM
^I don't think I've seen that in the game yet, but if we're going by the convention of localizing the ma in mamono or maou as shade/shadow, something like shadow particle/element?

Then again I'm not that far in the game myself.