Can someone explain this plot point to me? (Ending spoilers)

#1Ninjabrocoly1Posted 7/8/2011 1:15:23 PM
Why did the twins serve the shadowlord? Or were they simply trying to kill nier to protect Grimoire Noir who is necessary to put the Shades back into the replicants? They were just robots to oversee the gestalt project, I see no reason for them to be serving him.

I have 2 more questions. How did the shade that was the wolf pack leader exist, and how did the shadowlord put Yonah's spirit back into her original body? Do the shades have someway to force themselves into others bodies that has nothing to do with the Grimoires powers to recombine the Gestalt's and Replicant's? HELP!?!
#2CassyChanPosted 7/8/2011 2:18:55 PM
Devola and Popola's loyalty lies with Project Gestalt and their mission is to ensure its success, they don't serve the Shadowlord but at the end they absolutely can't let Nier get to him as killing the Shadowlord would result in the failure of Project Gestalt and the extinction of the human race (as without the Shadowlord and his control of the demonic element all of the gestalts are doomed to relapse). This is why Devola and Popola used Nier throughout the game, making him look for Weiss and sealed verses as Devola and Popola wanted to use them to force all the gestalts into their corresponding replicants as they had noticed an increased number of relapsed gestalts. Of course Grimoire Weiss gets amnesia, Nier runs around killing shades (even non-relapsed ones, like the first few you come across with him that won't even attack) which pisses them all off and then the Shadowlord loses it and takes replicant Yonah, things get quite out of hand.

Roc, the shade leader of the wolves, was a dog that became a gestalt thanks to his owner.

As for the gestalt Yonah being put in the replicant Yonah's body, the Shadowlord has his control of the demonic element and Grimoire Noir (Noir being designed to turn humans into gestalts upon contact), I assume the Shadowlord used some of his own power. Gestalts can be accepted into replicant bodies without such power though, the problem seems to be that the replicant must be willing (something difficult considering they can't communicate with each other), a couple of examples being the people at the Aerie and Kainé's possession by Tyrann (Tyrann is an unexplained entity though really, given his ability to first communicate with Kainé and whatever the hell power he has to do what he does in ending D, won't spoil that though if you haven't seen it yet). None of that may have been such a problem though if it hadn't been for the replicants developing their own consciousness, or maybe without that consciousness the sealed verses would have been absolutely necessary, I'm not sure, but like gestalt Yonah said at the end, all that time she was in the replicant body she could hear replicant Yonah calling out, so her taking that replicant body was more of a possession than the intention of Project Gestalt thanks to how the replicants developed their own consciousness.

lol, sorry if it's a tl;dr :)
#3Ninjabrocoly1(Topic Creator)Posted 7/8/2011 3:06:56 PM
Ah, thanks for that. Helps explain a lot. The only thing that I still find odd is how Yonah went into her replicant body. Grimoire Noir couldn't do anything because he was designed to separate the souls from their bodies, like you said, but had nothing to do with puting souls back into the bodies. Also another question if you wouldn't mind answering, the replicants are cloned bodies made to be resistant to the black scrawl right? If so then what happened to the original bodies? Did they all just lay there and decompose?
#4CassyChanPosted 7/9/2011 4:38:43 AM
Replicants are made using data from their corresponding gestalts, the reason replicants were made and humans became gestalts was because the humans would otherwise become extinct thanks to White Chlorination Syndrome, the reason some replicants get the Black Scrawl is because their gestalt has started to relapse (losing all sanity and sense of self, becoming vicious killers). Yonah would always have the Black Scrawl because her gestalt was frozen in the process of relapsing.

What happened to the gestalt's original bodies is something I think goes unexplained, after undergoing the gestalt process I assume their body degrades to the form we see gestalts/shades in during replicant Nier's time, stuff in Grimoire Nier, the Drama CD and other features makes it sound like many who first touched their copies of Grimoire Noir before human Nier tried took the form of gestalts pretty much then and there (which is why so shortly after Project Gestalt started at the intro we see human Nier fighting them in their gestalt/shade form). In the intro we see the original human Nier go through the gestalt process but throughout the intro he remains human, so I guess because he was the first and only gestalt to control the demonic element that control meant he didn't lose his physical, human form straight away, maybe he didnt even take the physical form of a gestalt till after he agreed to be what later became known as the Shadowlord, the guy who keeps all the other gestalts from relapsing. Their human forms are long gone anyway, as they would've all succumbed to the White Chlorination Syndrome, which would either kill them or turn them into Legion, enemies humans fought with back in human Niers time (I could go on about this stuff for hours, that's where the back story gets really interesting imo!). I believe the director said if they were to make another Nier game it would probably be set then.

This is just how I understand it anyway, based on Grimoire Nier, interviews, features in magazines like Dengeki PlayStation and stuff, theres a lot of depth to the whole story (enough to fill many more games according to the developers!) but some little things do go unexplained even in the supplementary materials.
#5SteelWingKnightPosted 7/10/2011 2:42:48 PM
CassyChan posted...

This is just how I understand it anyway, based on Grimoire Nier, interviews, features in magazines like Dengeki PlayStation and stuff, theres a lot of depth to the whole story (enough to fill many more games according to the developers!) but some little things do go unexplained even in the supplementary materials.


Yeah, the depth of this game's story is amazing. Heck, everything about Nier's story is. There's not that much you are fed outright throughout the game, but if you think and dig a bit it's almost overwhelming how much there is to it, but it can still be a simple enjoyable story on the surface.

Great posts, Casey.
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The fate of the planet rests on your ability to get frogs into holes.
Now Playing: Nier, Tales of Vesperia (360), Jade Empire (PC), various GameCube games
#6Ninjabrocoly1(Topic Creator)Posted 7/10/2011 6:35:13 PM
Your knowledge of things games lore is astounding. Thank you.
#7Ninjabrocoly1(Topic Creator)Posted 7/10/2011 6:35:27 PM
Your knowledge of things games lore is astounding. Thank you.
#8Ninjabrocoly1(Topic Creator)Posted 7/10/2011 6:41:36 PM
Forgot one last thing, if for whatever reason you may still look at this thread. Why did those first gestalt's attack. Did they, for whatever reason, instantly relapse?
#9SteelWingKnightPosted 7/10/2011 7:03:47 PM
Ninjabrocoly1 posted...
Forgot one last thing, if for whatever reason you may still look at this thread. Why did those first gestalt's attack. Did they, for whatever reason, instantly relapse?

What do you mean by "first" gestalts?

If you mean the first ones you meet in the game that don't attack you, it's because they probably found out that Nier has been killing massive amounts of their kind and are obviously not too happy about that and probably scared for their own survival. Word gets around between shades...
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The fate of the planet rests on your ability to get frogs into holes.
Now Playing: Nier, Tales of Vesperia (360), Jade Empire (PC), various GameCube games
#10CassyChanPosted 7/11/2011 1:28:31 AM
Thanks guys, I love this game! It's amazing how much depth it has and that they supported and fleshed out the story out of game with all this stuff like magazine features, Grimoire Nier and the Drama CD. Also good to see you on the 360 Nier board too SteelWingKnight, I remember you from the PS3 Nier board.

As for the gestalts/shades attacking... The very first gestalts in human Nier's time were relapsed, relapsed gestalts are basically insane and will attack anything, before human Nier could control the demonic element all humans that tried the gestalt process would relapse. 1400 years later in the main game some would still relapse because the Shadowlord was on a rampage and I guess neglecting his role as the Shadowlord, to keep the other gestalts in check, which is why Devola and Popola wanted to force the gestalts back into their replicants. Oh, and relapsing happens as a result of being away from one's body too long, without the Shadowlord who survived the gestalt process with his mind intact and with his control of the demonic element then all other gestalts are doomed to relapse, which kinda puts a depressing spin on the end of the game, lol.

When you first come across shades playing as replicant Nier like SteelWingKnight said they actually don't attack you, you can stand around doing noting and they'll just look at you! But because relapsed gestalts had given them a bad name the replicants think they're all bad, so Nier wouldn't hesitate to kill them. No shades attack you until you take Grimoire Weiss, by this point Nier has killed a lot of shades so I think by then the shades have motive (self defense and revenge) but also Nier did abduct Weiss, who they know is key to them one day having bodies again. Goose, the big boar shade that seems invincible, attacks Nier & co. so ferociously out of revenge for all the shades they've killed, as stated in Grimoire Nier too. I think there are a couple of side-quests where some shades don't attack as well.