What's the point of female Spartans?

#11PatchTuesdayPosted 12/27/2009 7:16:55 PM
BailorNinja, if you had to fight a Spartan in hand-to-hand combat, with no weapons, who would you pick as your opponent?

Answer: it doesn't matter. Any one of them could wipe the floor with a normal human.

Kelly and Linda might be women, and logic would imply that even augmented, John may be stronger than either of them, making one of the females a logical choice. But when playing with powers like augmented Spartans, any difference that can be accounted for because "she's female" is so small that it doesn't matter. Is it possible that the strongest female Spartan can only be as strong physically as a middling-strength male Spartan? Yes. But the difference between the two is the difference between lifting 25,000 pounds and 25,001 pounds - so small that it doesn't matter at all.

Again, the Spartans were chosen from a list of people in the right age group, with an exceedingly exact list of requirements for each one. Halsey's criteria were so specific that she could only a hundred and fifty out of the billions (maybe trillions) of humans alive in 2519 (I think that was the year, anyway). If you find someone who fits the criteria, you don't turn them away because they're female. Doing so would be counterproductive in the extreme - you'd be hard-pressed to find another person not already on the list of candidates who was male, and for a benefit so small as to be completely negligible.

In summary, the point is that female Spartans are - through logical deduction and as shown in the canon - just as good at anything they choose to be as male Spartans. Gender-specific descrepencies may be there, but they're so tiny as to not matter, and the difficulty of finding the candidates makes it doubly important to use whoever fits and not be picky once you have a match that works.

And also, only midly relevant: frankly, strength is overrated. Sam was the strongest Spartan, and he was the first one to die. As far as pure physical attributes go, the only one ever shown to be useful in a particular way is Kelly's speed; Kelly, who is often observed to be completely untouchable when sparring, even by Sam, on account of speed.
---
GT: Stringslayer420 - If I'm online and not watching a movie, I'm probably down for some Firefight or Halo 3.
#12BailorNinja(Topic Creator)Posted 12/27/2009 7:31:53 PM
Does it matter that there are female spartans?

Depends on who you are talking about. For us as gamers, no. It's all fictional anyway. But then you could argue does the story matter at all, in which case, then there's no point in caring about the books, the single player, or the universe as a whole.

From an in-universe perspective it's a valid question. If you are trying to win a war, and want to use the most effective soldiers possible, yes I think it matters.


As a whole, men are stronger. But when near indestructible bones and muscle building hormones are used, the difference tends to be little.

When it comes to thinking, the male brain is highly specialized, using specific parts of one hemisphere or the other to accomplish specific tasks. The female brain is more diffused and utilizes significant portions of both hemispheres for a variety of tasks. Men are able to focus on narrow issues and block out unrelated information and distractions. Women naturally see everyday things from a broader, "big-picture" vantage point. Men can narrowly focus their brains on specific tasks or activities for long periods of time without tiring. Women are better equipped to divide their attention among multiple activities or tasks. Men are able to separate information, stimulus, emotions, relationships, etc. into separate compartments in their brains, while women tend to link everything together. Men see individual issues with parts of their brain, while women look at the holistic or multiple issues with their whole brain (both hemispheres). These are advantages when mixed together.


Maybe but even if one is marginally better than the other, why would you choose the marginally inferior one? Why not go with the best one every time? That's what doesn't make sense. If you have the option to pick the best one, you would go with the best one.

I suppose your "psychological" explanation is the closest we can possibly get to a real reason why female Spartans exist.
#13litebotPosted 12/27/2009 7:51:18 PM
I don't think the difference would be that small. If a female after argumentation went to be able to lift from 100lb to 1,000lb while the male could lift 1,001 well then the augmentation for the male was pretty pointless. If they have more to work with and since the male body is built to carry more muscle then the male spartan should be able to lift well over one extra pound.

---
If you believe in CL4P-TP and have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your signature.
#14PatchTuesdayPosted 12/27/2009 7:54:22 PM
"Maybe but even if one is marginally better than the other, why would you choose the marginally inferior one? Why not go with the best one every time? That's what doesn't make sense. If you have the option to pick the best one, you would go with the best one."

In the case of the female Spartans, it's entirely possible that when Dr. Halsey started searching, she restricted it to males, attempting to take advantage of male predispositions toward physical strength - and then realized there were not enough people to fit her criteria if she restricted it to one gender. Not anyone can be a Spartan, as is often observed in the novels.

(Also, because the difference is just that: MARGINAL. The definition of "marginal" is literally something off to the side, in the margin - irrelevant. Also, you might pick the marginally inferior one in the interest of time. If the Covenant will glass Earth in four months, you take the person you could get in three months - even if there are better people you can get in five months. The people may be too difficult to gather and ready in time, or may simply not exist.)

Interestingly, Kurt and the Spartan-IIIs, with his much more relaxed criteria, seemed to represent girls a lot more than the Spartan-IIs did. This could mean that males ARE preferred, it's just that there simply didn't exist enough males to meet the satisfactory class size with the IIs - Kurt's more relaxed criteria may have allowed more girls in.

This could also mean nothing, and just be because of character development choices by Joe Staten when he wrote Ghosts of Onyx. Just an observation.
---
GT: Stringslayer420 - If I'm online and not watching a movie, I'm probably down for some Firefight or Halo 3.
#15PatchTuesdayPosted 12/27/2009 8:17:52 PM
"I don't think the difference would be that small. If a female after argumentation went to be able to lift from 100lb to 1,000lb while the male could lift 1,001 well then the augmentation for the male was pretty pointless. If they have more to work with and since the male body is built to carry more muscle then the male spartan should be able to lift well over one extra pound."

1. Don't take it literally. You know what I meant.

2. If a man and a woman underwent the augmentations, and the woman came out able to lift 1000 pounds, while the man came out able to lift 1001, then the augmentation for the man was certainly not pointless. He went from lifting perhaps 250 at the absolute max previously to lifting one thousand goddamn pounds, plus one.

3."What the body is built for" is irrelevant. Bodies are not meant to lift that much, run that fast, do any the things Spartans do to begin with. These are people with skeletons that are literally ten percent artificial, with nerves that have been manipulated into sending signals faster, with injections to increase their muscles mass - male and female. (On that note, the females could recieve addition muscle-growth injections specifically to negate any gender-related lack of muscle mass compared to the males.)

Any strength or weakness specific to one gender would almost definitely not exist given such artifical enhancements, and if they did, they would only exist in the most clinical, by-the-numbers way, and in no way that could percievably influence the Spartans' activity.

Is it possible that any such hypothetical gender-specific weakness could be eliminated with stricter enrollment criteria? Maybe. There is no guarantee given the narrow criteria for enrollment as a Spartan that someone will be found. And that they can be retrieved in time.

Remember, even before the Covenant, the Spartan project had a deadline. Human society was on the verge of collapse. There may have been a male who did not suffer from any hypothetical weaknesses that Kelly may have on account of being a girl, yet who still possessed all of her strengths. But Kelly had one feature that made her infinitely more valuable than that male - she had already been found and could be retrieved. Time is/was of the essence.
---
GT: Stringslayer420 - If I'm online and not watching a movie, I'm probably down for some Firefight or Halo 3.
#16FullyautomcPosted 12/27/2009 9:02:54 PM
"Maybe but even if one is marginally better than the other, why would you choose the marginally inferior one? Why not go with the best one every time? That's what doesn't make sense. If you have the option to pick the best one, you would go with the best one."

The requirements to be a Spartan have little to do with base genetic physical strength. Genetically, the candidates had to be scientifically proven to be compatible with the possible "upgrades." Even then, some still were not. The genetic and synthetic upgrades diminished the need to be strong as quickness/agility is more valuable than strength/brawn when used in cybernetic suits that made each Spartan nearly identical in every attribute.

The fact that each Spartan was "best" in one category each was a reflection of their individuality. Kelly ran the fastest and had the best reflexes, but she was only faster than the other Spartans to give her a slight edge on them. Against anything other than an Elite or Brute (and even then only the best of them), their opponent is not going to notice which one is fastest.

Sam was the strongest out of his suit, but Kelly's speed allowed her to beat him every time they sparred. Out of his suit, Sam can easily flip a Hog but not toss it. Every Spartan can toss a Hog when suited up. The distances they toss them don't vary much.

Because it's genetic compatibility to the enhancements not base genetic potential that determined candidacy, male or female Spartans are used.

PS: Weaker men beat stronger men all the time by being quicker and smarter. Why would a female be any different in capability than a man to be the underdog and win through smarts and speed?
---
Brawndo- It's got electrolytes!
#17marine23b1Posted 12/28/2009 2:01:25 AM
To make Spartan babies?

like Yao Ming the basket ball player.
#18renegadedodPosted 12/28/2009 3:59:14 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
#19POPmaster11Posted 12/28/2009 5:24:57 AM
The point of having female spartans is to stop Bungie from looking sexist. What would people think if they had an all male group of spartans?
---
104 time changes in 6:14 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dSztjpJNNk
#20FullyautomcPosted 12/28/2009 6:37:08 AM
^ well that was stupid to bring up. There were a few female Spartan's in the prequel book before Halo:CE and no other Spartan, male of female was featured in the games till Halo Wars (non-Bungie). To which we got Alice.

Miranda Keyes was a female captain that headed direct and crucial campaigns against the Covenant.

As well Cortana, our sidekick who just happens to be one of the smartest beings in the universe, based of a female human who happens to be one of the smartest humans to ever live.

Right. Sexist Bungie and Halo-verse.
---
Brawndo- It's got electrolytes!