this is seriously one of the top 10 RPGS of all time.

#191Thanatos2kPosted 7/15/2012 3:33:18 PM
The road to the Esper Gate is virtually all undead save one enemy. Daryl's Tomb is all undead save the boss, Malboro, and Angler Welk. There are undead scattered in several dungeons, and they're often the last man standing. King Behemoth is 1/2 an undead battle, the second half when you might need to use Osmosis (thankfully two of Mog's dances just own undead). The Phoenix Cave has two, there is, I think one in Cyan's dream.

But as I said, you can use phoenix downs (cheap) or Life (also cheap) to wipe them out with ease. And it's not like you can't kill them normally using regular attacks and spells, you just have to lay off the autokill attacks. It's not like they somehow consume more MP to fight than normal enemies.

As for FFX, most people don't play long enough to gather upgrade spheres for the Grid,

...Huh? Why would you say that?

Nope, not a bug, it was intentional as they fixed almost all bugs in FF6 gba

Could have been a bug they just decided to leave in and pretend it was a "feature."

but that was so major and easy to spot

Not really. I don't think you'd ever MP kill a boss if you didn't know about it beforehand.
---
-Thanatos2k-
#192ignasia7Posted 7/15/2012 4:00:32 PM
It's the first game with Rasp, and given how many bosses have high-powered spells in FF6, and how much magic plays a role, it's logical to assume that a player would be curious about using both. Keep doing so and watch as mobs die to MP kills. Granted you won't know up front...yes you can MP kill bosses...haha that was so simple; no, that wouldn't be logical. Nor is there any NPC that tells you to do this, but then no NPC tells you anything gameplay related aside from several helpful videos, a few pointers on weakness for certain bosses, Chupon/Typhoon will blow you away, and the info place in Narshe.


As for Phoenix Downs and Life...yes, but Life is costly and Phoenix Downs in a low level and normal game are expensive at the points where you come across undead dungeons. Even assuming having spent weeks on the Veldt getting all WoB rages and maxing everyone's spell tree (I've done it for everyone, and I've found it is very costly, especially given how expensive relics and other equipment is, even getting just basic needs). My current playthrough is a low level game, and I had over 700k earned on the Veldt alone in the WoB. However spending money keeping up items, ensuring I have all gear at suitable numbers, and keeping the party alive through multiple battles while stealing a lot was still not enough to maintain adequate stock to just spam either every battle. Again, you can't Osmose the undead, it drains my MP, and I had to purchase Ethers, which does become costly.

Though if I didn't spend so much time stealing, and played the game normally, my money issues would likely have been nill, and I would probably have carried 500k of that 700k into the WoR rather than 180.
---
Campaign for PT in US: http://oprainfall.blogspot.com/ ==> Two down, one to go.
PSO2 = Sexy Awesome Beast of a Game!
#193ignasia7Posted 7/15/2012 4:14:48 PM
Thanatos, save for the International version, as you well know, everyone has a specific grid spot on the sphere grid, with particular spells, skills, and stat boosts. Granted finishing up a single area for anyone offers decent stat boosts, enough to finish the main story, though the final boss becomes a challenge. The rest of the grid, and several key spheres are locked off by keys. Some of areas by multiple keys, and some spells/skills by 4-8 keys. The game allows X number of keys to be granted to the player, hardly enough to unlock the full board, or the board for everyone, the idea being to grant players the option to unlock a certain number of special skills and spells that are locked off, rather than opening the whole board.

To get more keys you have to battle for them. This takes time, and then there are level 1, 2, 3, and I think level 4 keys?

To top things off, if you really want to make the most use of MP and boost magical prowess, arguably the least represented stats on the sphere grid, the game requires a lot of time to hunt down spheres that boost MP and the Magic stat. What good is having a billion MP if the power behind that cast is laughable? Also affects summons given summon stats reflect Yuna's. So a lot of questions arise like what party member to focus on first, what unlock pattern should be taken, and what characters/skill trees are preferred?

It's a LOT of work. Took me over 500 hours just to get half my grid filled, and the whole thing unlocked, and my stats are still not high enough to take on the hardest arena bosses like Nemesis, without using cheap tactics like alchemy and some luck with timing. Took me 50 hours to unlock every special weapon. Not that it mattered as it takes far less time to hunt the individual weapons with each special ability..the sole exception being Break Damage Limit, which is a pain to get outside of just unlocking the "ultimate weapons".

I know we're not talking about maxing out, but the point remains the same, just to allow players to reach the full grid, or to even do something like play a magic only game, it takes a lot of time. Then there's the AP required to keep moving back and forth through the grid. Granted farming isn't that bad, but it can be tedious. For me it's not a hassle, but most gamers hate farming without instant gratification rewards (farmville anyone?), something FFX does not offer.
---
Campaign for PT in US: http://oprainfall.blogspot.com/ ==> Two down, one to go.
PSO2 = Sexy Awesome Beast of a Game!
#194Thanatos2kPosted 7/15/2012 11:21:38 PM
As for Phoenix Downs and Life...yes, but Life is costly and Phoenix Downs in a low level and normal game are expensive at the points where you come across undead dungeons

MP systems and Draw/Junction systems aren't being designed for a low level playthrough. That should NEVER be a design consideration.

Again, you can't Osmose the undead, it drains my MP, and I had to purchase Ethers, which does become costly.

But you see, FF6 has a handy feature where you don't have to always be casting magic - each person has personal skills, and they are often free. There's no need to spam magic with Edgar - he has all the tools for the job. Sabin should be blitzing, etc.

If you're always casting magic you're doing it wrong in FF6.

Thanatos, save for the International version, as you well know, everyone has a specific grid spot on the sphere grid, with particular spells, skills, and stat boosts. Granted finishing up a single area for anyone offers decent stat boosts, enough to finish the main story, though the final boss becomes a challenge. The rest of the grid, and several key spheres are locked off by keys. Some of areas by multiple keys, and some spells/skills by 4-8 keys. The game allows X number of keys to be granted to the player, hardly enough to unlock the full board, or the board for everyone, the idea being to grant players the option to unlock a certain number of special skills and spells that are locked off, rather than opening the whole board.

Why are you acting like the keys are rare or something? And you're obviously going to pump up the people you use. It's really, REALLY not an issue.

It's a LOT of work. Took me over 500 hours just to get half my grid filled

...Are you serious? I had maxed grids for everyone important and nearly all arena bosses down in maybe 150 hours. And a lot of that time was game upon game of Blitzball.
---
-Thanatos2k-
#195Breastmilkn_DipPosted 7/15/2012 11:28:37 PM
#193 | ignasia7 | Posted 7/16/2012 12:14:48 AM
It's a LOT of work. Took me over 500 hours just to get half my grid filled, and the whole thing unlocked, and my stats are still not high enough to take on the hardest arena bosses like Nemesis, without using cheap tactics like alchemy and some luck with timing.

??????

My 521 hour save included a hell of a lot time just idly playing Blitzball time and again, frequent visits to those awesome Omega Ruins and the Monster Arena - not out of necessity, just for the hell of it. In other words, maybe 300 hours+ of extreme loafing around yet I still had the Grid maxed out, all the Celestial weapons, the Arena complete, Dark Aeons defeated, etc, etc in that time.
.
.
---
lysa-tully.nom
#196ignasia7Posted 7/16/2012 12:01:23 AM
Thanatos the whole point was discussing MP usage and breakdown. Even so not all skills and abilities are that useful in every situation. Level plays into it, how many Dances you've unlocked and whether Mog trips and falls. Whether you paid attention to Edgar's purchases, but even so his level factors heavily into damage, and Tools aren't anywhere near that useful towards the end of the first act and into the second. At least not when it comes down to overall damage. Setzer is a joke without being able to trip Joker Death, as his best weapons are useless against undead, Coin Throw sucks for damage to cost ratio, and slots are so-so ok barring Joker Death. Locke is the only pure-form front line fighter. Celes special is pure defense and not useful against enemy skills, and not useful if you forget to retrigger or an enemy casts in between choosing and reinvoking it. Terra's is awesome, but inconsistent in usage, and not good to throw around in normal battles due to number of battles between uses affects the time it lasts. This makes Celes, Locke, Terra, Setzer, Mog, and Edgar prime examples of people who would be better off using magic in many situations, or sporadically here and there as needed.

Sabin's damage is so so in the end of act 1, and act 2 until he unlocks his final two blitzes. Aura bolt goes a long way, but it's single target and being elemental, is inconsistent in usefulness. However Sabin the meathead is a caster class with one of the two lowest Magic stats, requiring a bit of stat maxing with espers to get the most out of him. Not an issue, but if you aren't aware that 5 of his Blitzes are magic based you won't know to do that, and instead waste time pumping Strength.

Cyan's abilities are crap until you finish his second act sidequest, in which case you can trigger psycho Cyan, but the time it takes to even do so is wasted unless you're 1) low level, and therefor battles will take awhile, or 2) up against a boss.

Gau is only good if you manage to get the right Rages, and then he's probably the best character in game (infinite spell usage...even if it's only one spell or skill or attack, that's still awesome), though given how rage works it requires intimate knowledge of what to use and where. At least there are a few neutral rages like General and Stray Cat.

Gogo is just awesome provided the attack done before is a good attack, like Phantom Rush. Otherwise, without good planning he makes an excellent magic user. Or just give him good attack types from others.

Umaro is just...well you can't control.

Relm sucks without control, but that forces a relic slot, making her less effective, and just to make the most out of it, you require a weak helm.

Strago is awesome provided you have the right blue magics. At least his best attack spell is learned automatically in the second act, after finishing his sidequest.

Shadow is always good, but Fuma's really tack on some high prices, and pinwheels are take awhile to steal.

At least there's Cactuar hunting. Either Locke with valiant or Setzer with dice/fixed dice. Chainsaw can work, but it's inconsistent.


Also I just tested out MP death. It doesn't work on every enemy, only magically inclined monsters. This implies purpose, so definitely not a bug or oversight.


Well I did leave out blitzball time, but I don't remember how much I spent playing that, could be 50, could be as high as 150 hours. However, I'm not just talking about unlocking the full grid. I"m talking about getting max stats. So you're telling me you had every open sphere given a stat boost? Every stat boost less than the max changed to the max, and had 255 every stat with 99,999 HP prior to 150 hours of total gametime, included heavy blitzball time? There is no possible way I can believe that.
---
Campaign for PT in US: http://oprainfall.blogspot.com/ ==> Two down, one to go.
PSO2 = Sexy Awesome Beast of a Game!
#197Thanatos2kPosted 7/16/2012 9:06:37 AM
Thanatos the whole point was discussing MP usage and breakdown.

We were discussing the need for balance. In FF8 there are no personal skills, it's magic or attack. That means a significant shift in balance necessitating a more free use of magic to keep combat interesting. And that's why I think the magic should have been free to use once unlocked.

At least there's Cactuar hunting. Either Locke with valiant or Setzer with dice/fixed dice. Chainsaw can work, but it's inconsistent.

That's what the Scimitar is for.

However, I'm not just talking about unlocking the full grid. I"m talking about getting max stats. So you're telling me you had every open sphere given a stat boost? Every stat boost less than the max changed to the max, and had 255 every stat with 99,999 HP prior to 150 hours of total gametime, included heavy blitzball time? There is no possible way I can believe that.

It really doesn't take that long. Especially if you're not anal about having everything maxed.
---
-Thanatos2k-
#198ignasia7Posted 7/16/2012 12:20:56 PM
I just argued for maxing every stat, and you then tell me it doesn't take that long provided you don't max stats. So just to disagree, you used circular logic? C'mon Thanatos, you're smarter than that. Sure, if you're not looking to "max stats" and instead just fill out the grid as much as possible, whether you get a low stat boost sphere or a high, it won't take that long. Maxing stats implies hitting their caps. It takes time and patience to get those high stat spheres, with a lot of battling for them. Even then it's a question of what builds you're aiming for and what stat spheres you're aiming for.

The initial discussion was over balance, then we reverted to a more specific discussion about Final Fantasy and MP usage, where your initial argument was there are no MP issues in FF, in response to True_Fan's argument there needs to be some risk/reward incentive beyond infinite spell casting, which just breaks the game. So no, in this instance the discussion is what I stated, MP usage and breakdown of MP in various FF's. Most of the focus has been over FF6.

Scimitar is usable by very few people, nor is it 100% effective against cactuar. Locke with a valiant knife is 100% kill rate, as Valiant bypasses all special physical defense, both for the HP bonus damage and for the initial base damage. Setzer's dice ignores all defense, and the lowest damage possible with either is enough to kill a cactuar in one hit. If I remember correctly, 1,000 Needles always works, so Gau with Brainpan and Strago are also good picks, though Gau has a 50% success rate. I believe Relm is useful with control in this instance, provided control works and I cannot remember the success rate on Cactuars.
---
Campaign for PT in US: http://oprainfall.blogspot.com/ ==> Two down, one to go.
PSO2 = Sexy Awesome Beast of a Game!
#199Thanatos2kPosted 7/16/2012 2:10:30 PM
I just argued for maxing every stat, and you then tell me it doesn't take that long provided you don't max stats

You said "filling your grid" at first, not maxing your stats. Don't blame me your weren't clear on what you meant.

Scimitar is usable by very few people, nor is it 100% effective against cactuar.

My Offering->Scimitar farming begs to differ. Even if you don't kill them outright, they die in a few rounds anyways. It's the Hoovers that cause problems if you can't live through a couple Crushes, that's why you use Wing Edges with Locke and the darts with auto-kill with Setzer.
---
-Thanatos2k-
#200evillockePosted 7/19/2012 7:28:50 PM
ignasia7 posted...
I just argued for maxing every stat, and you then tell me it doesn't take that long provided you don't max stats. So just to disagree, you used circular logic? C'mon Thanatos, you're smarter than that. Sure, if you're not looking to "max stats" and instead just fill out the grid as much as possible, whether you get a low stat boost sphere or a high, it won't take that long. Maxing stats implies hitting their caps. It takes time and patience to get those high stat spheres, with a lot of battling for them. Even then it's a question of what builds you're aiming for and what stat spheres you're aiming for.

The initial discussion was over balance, then we reverted to a more specific discussion about Final Fantasy and MP usage, where your initial argument was there are no MP issues in FF, in response to True_Fan's argument there needs to be some risk/reward incentive beyond infinite spell casting, which just breaks the game. So no, in this instance the discussion is what I stated, MP usage and breakdown of MP in various FF's. Most of the focus has been over FF6.

Scimitar is usable by very few people, nor is it 100% effective against cactuar. Locke with a valiant knife is 100% kill rate, as Valiant bypasses all special physical defense, both for the HP bonus damage and for the initial base damage. Setzer's dice ignores all defense, and the lowest damage possible with either is enough to kill a cactuar in one hit. If I remember correctly, 1,000 Needles always works, so Gau with Brainpan and Strago are also good picks, though Gau has a 50% success rate. I believe Relm is useful with control in this instance, provided control works and I cannot remember the success rate on Cactuars.


I see what you meant on the ff4 board.
---
Not changing this until ff6 gets a 3ds remake. 6/19/2012.