Hey, Snow, since you tend to know everything about the series... (SPOILERS)

#1Chaos_EchoPosted 12/11/2012 9:28:25 AM
What's your opinion on the relationship between Ganon and Demise? Is he a straight-up reincarnation of him, like Zelda to Hylia, or is he a manifestation of his hatred? I think the former, but most of the internet thinks the latter.
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Majora's Incarnation is what happens when game designers smoke crack.
#2SnowBrigadierPosted 12/11/2012 10:59:41 AM
My first thought was that he was a reincarnation just like Link and Zelda; the visual similarity between Demise and Ganondorf is way too big to ignore and both Hyrule Historia and the games talk about a "cycle of reincarnations", meaning that there definitely is some reincarnation going on. However, since Ganondorf isn't a god made of pure evil, it's probably closer to a reincarnation similar to the one Hylia made becoming Zelda than anything else.

On the other hand, Demise does say that it's his hatred and grudge that will return, but based on the Japanese script, he seems to be talking more about the curse of the Demon Tribe than about how he specifically will return.
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And the flesh you so fancifully fry is not succulent, tasty or nice
It's death for no reason, and death for no reason is murder
#3CatMutoPosted 12/11/2012 11:32:03 AM
The Topic may ask openly for Snow's opinion, but if you didn't want to hear any other opinions, you would've had this conversation done in PMs.

the visual similarity between Demise and Ganondorf is way too big to ignore and both Hyrule Historia and the games talk about a "cycle of reincarnations"


Does not necessarily mean anything.
The game designers probably made the resemblance so high because Ganondorf is the most known villain in the Zelda Series and hence would be recognized. However, I'd also like to point out what Fi says about Demise. Namely, that his appearance changes throughout his appearance - whether this mean straight-up reincarnation or his hatred having different visuals throughout the ages is up to debate.
Although the localization and Japanese version are very different in text as you say, Snow, the Demon Tribe is constantly mentioned throughout the game, yet we never really know who they are or what they do. Or even what this curse specifically does or is.

it's probably closer to a reincarnation similar to the one Hylia made becoming Zelda than anything else.


Now this I always found very shady... For one, we never outright know what Hylia herself looked like - we see statues of her, but that doesn't tell us all too much. And Zelda herself says that "she (Hylia) gave up her immortal form" so would this mean she simply morphed into Zelda's appearance or did she really wait to be reincarnated at some point in time as Zelda? But I find Hylia's entire long-thought-out plan a bit fishy and incomplete...

C-A
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Cloud and Sephiroth - battling each other since '97 for your amusement
Give it a rest already!
#4Chaos_Echo(Topic Creator)Posted 12/11/2012 12:12:38 PM
SnowBrigadier posted...
My first thought was that he was a reincarnation just like Link and Zelda; the visual similarity between Demise and Ganondorf is way too big to ignore and both Hyrule Historia and the games talk about a "cycle of reincarnations", meaning that there definitely is some reincarnation going on. However, since Ganondorf isn't a god made of pure evil, it's probably closer to a reincarnation similar to the one Hylia made becoming Zelda than anything else.



Yeah, that's what I'd meant. Him reincarnating into human form like Hylia did.


CatMuto posted...
The Topic may ask openly for Snow's opinion, but if you didn't want to hear any other opinions, you would've had this conversation done in PMs.


It was mainly directed at him, yes, but feel free to throw in your own thoughts. It's just, like I said, most people took the "hatred following you for all time" line at face value.
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Majora's Incarnation is what happens when game designers smoke crack.
#5SnowBrigadierPosted 12/11/2012 1:48:55 PM
Does not necessarily mean anything.
The game designers probably made the resemblance so high because Ganondorf is the most known villain in the Zelda Series and hence would be recognized. However, I'd also like to point out what Fi says about Demise. Namely, that his appearance changes throughout his appearance - whether this mean straight-up reincarnation or his hatred having different visuals throughout the ages is up to debate.
Although the localization and Japanese version are very different in text as you say, Snow, the Demon Tribe is constantly mentioned throughout the game, yet we never really know who they are or what they do. Or even what this curse specifically does or is.


Hyrule Historia's artwork section specifically states that Demise's design looks the way it does because they wanted to show his connection to Ganondorf. And as for what the Demon Tribe and the curse, based on SS and past games, the demon tribe seems to be all the monsters under Ganon's control and the curse is the continuing cycle of reincarnations bound to continue the struggle over Hyrule and the Triforce.


Now this I always found very shady... For one, we never outright know what Hylia herself looked like - we see statues of her, but that doesn't tell us all too much. And Zelda herself says that "she (Hylia) gave up her immortal form" so would this mean she simply morphed into Zelda's appearance or did she really wait to be reincarnated at some point in time as Zelda? But I find Hylia's entire long-thought-out plan a bit fishy and incomplete...

I would say that it's rather clear that Hylia's appearance is meant to resemble Zelda. If the Skyward Sword manga is worth anything (and it probably is, since it was made at the request of Aonuma himself), Hylia and Zelda do indeed look strikingly similar. SS also says that Zelda is Hylia reborn as a human, meaning that she is indeed a reincarnation.
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And the flesh you so fancifully fry is not succulent, tasty or nice
It's death for no reason, and death for no reason is murder
#6CatMutoPosted 12/11/2012 3:51:07 PM
I thought all Zelda manga were counted as non-canon. And I personally do not know if I should trust anything about Hyrule Historia as it seemed to me that it came together by a bunch of fans who wrote all possible details down and eventually got it published...

Of course the line "incarnation of hatred" can be taken at face-value. What else are we supposed to think? That Demise curses Link, but then it turns out he does nothing after all and all the other bad guys were just... simply bad guys who just happened to want their hands on the triforce?

C-A
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Cloud and Sephiroth - battling each other since '97 for your amusement
Give it a rest already!
#7Czar_YoshiPosted 12/11/2012 5:30:53 PM
CatMuto posted...
I thought all Zelda manga were counted as non-canon. And I personally do not know if I should trust anything about Hyrule Historia as it seemed to me that it came together by a bunch of fans who wrote all possible details down and eventually got it published...


If HH really was a fanmade publication, it would have followed the prevailing theory of the day, which was that ALttP and all subsequent games followed FSA on the child timeline. The only reason why they had to be moved (and probably the main reason why HH exists) is because Nintendo wants to open that space for Zelda Wii U.
#8SnowBrigadierPosted 12/11/2012 7:44:46 PM
I thought all Zelda manga were counted as non-canon. And I personally do not know if I should trust anything about Hyrule Historia as it seemed to me that it came together by a bunch of fans who wrote all possible details down and eventually got it published...

Hyrule Historia is 100% official, which is why it contains concept art that had never been seen before, a manga that had never been published before, game in formation that no one outside of Nintendo knew about and opening and closing statements written by Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma themselves (not to mention that they're both credited as creators of the book). Fans had nothing to do with it.

And as for the manga, they're generally considered non-canon, but Skyward Sword is a special case since the story was specifically created at the request of Aonuma himself.


Of course the line "incarnation of hatred" can be taken at face-value. What else are we supposed to think? That Demise curses Link, but then it turns out he does nothing after all and all the other bad guys were just... simply bad guys who just happened to want their hands on the triforce?

The confusion is about who and what is actually included in the curse. Some believe that all enemies and bosses are part of it, but I would say that only the Demon Tribe and Ganondorf are.
---
And the flesh you so fancifully fry is not succulent, tasty or nice
It's death for no reason, and death for no reason is murder
#9Czar_YoshiPosted 12/11/2012 11:05:05 PM
SnowBrigadier posted...
The confusion is about who and what is actually included in the curse. Some believe that all enemies and bosses are part of it, but I would say that only the Demon Tribe and Ganondorf are.


What about semi-tenacious bad guys like Vaati?

Oh, and so Miniblins are officially demons now? I can buy that.
#10SnowBrigadierPosted 12/12/2012 8:43:28 AM
What about semi-tenacious bad guys like Vaati?

Well, Vaati was originally a mere Minish corrupted by greed and the powers of Ezlo's cap, so I wouldn't say he's the same. Sure, Ganon may have been born human too, but his is a special case. I don't think there was anything inherently demonic about Vaati.
---
And the flesh you so fancifully fry is not succulent, tasty or nice
It's death for no reason, and death for no reason is murder