Question regarding Raiden's cyborg body

#31ImaginaryDreamsPosted 2/20/2014 7:33:42 AM
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#32ImaginaryDreamsPosted 2/23/2014 1:11:21 PM
F0Xhole posted...
Let's backtrack real quick:
MAJOR SERIES SPOILERS

The African Outer Heaven Incident

In 1995, an agent from a special forces unit called FOXHOUND infiltrated a military installation known as Outer Heaven. The agent was Solid Snake, a rookie at the time. His objectives were to rescue a fellow FOXHOUNDer named Grey Fox and to destroy a mysterious weapon known only as Metal Gear. Solid Snake received radio support from Big Boss, commander of FOXHOUND. Eventually Snake saved Fox, destroyed Metal Gear (a nuclear-equipped walking battle tank), and discovered that Big Boss was the leader of Outer Heaven. Snake defeated Big Boss and destroyed Outer Heaven.

(continued)


You mentioned that Solid Snake was receiving radio support from Big Boss. Why would Big Boss help Snake when he was the leader behind it all?
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#33F0XholePosted 2/23/2014 6:34:05 PM
ImaginaryDreams posted...
F0Xhole posted...
Let's backtrack real quick:
MAJOR SERIES SPOILERS

The African Outer Heaven Incident

In 1995, an agent from a special forces unit called FOXHOUND infiltrated a military installation known as Outer Heaven. The agent was Solid Snake, a rookie at the time. His objectives were to rescue a fellow FOXHOUNDer named Grey Fox and to destroy a mysterious weapon known only as Metal Gear. Solid Snake received radio support from Big Boss, commander of FOXHOUND. Eventually Snake saved Fox, destroyed Metal Gear (a nuclear-equipped walking battle tank), and discovered that Big Boss was the leader of Outer Heaven. Snake defeated Big Boss and destroyed Outer Heaven.

(continued)


You mentioned that Solid Snake was receiving radio support from Big Boss. Why would Big Boss help Snake when he was the leader behind it all?


Basically, Big Boss sent in Snake, a rookie at the time, expecting him to fail. Snake was doing really well, and towards the end of the game, Big Boss even advised Snake to quit the mission and tried to lure him into traps. Where FOXHOUND was a United States Special Forces unit, and Outer Heaven was very much not, Big Boss had to give the appearance that he was on America's side.

Like I said, he expected Snake to fail. That's why he was sent in. But later on, Big Boss actually tried to sabotage Snake's mission, before finally confronting him personally at the end.
#34ImaginaryDreamsPosted 2/23/2014 10:10:18 PM
You mentioned several times that some of the villains were really wanting snake to succeed. (like for example snake at the MGS4 game) why even fight against snake than?

what's everyone objective?
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#35F0XholePosted 2/24/2014 10:48:02 AM
ImaginaryDreams posted...
You mentioned several times that some of the villains were really wanting snake to succeed. (like for example snake at the MGS4 game) why even fight against snake than?

what's everyone objective?


It basically serves as a plot device/plot twist. After the original game, and after the events of ZanzibarLand, Snake was seen as a legendary hero, one who can succeed at all odds. Even with the best boss units, the odds are still in Snake's favor. He's just that damn good. Normal grunts are nothing but cannon fodder to him, so they are irrelevant.

This point is sort of supported in the Shadow Moses Incident. Snake has to destroy an M1 Tank, and he manages to do so. After he obtains a key from a fallen enemy, a conversation is heard between someone in the tank (Vulcan Raven, a FOXHOUNDer) and Liquid. Raven explains that Liquid got what he wanted, for Snake to proceed, but that Snake was a "demon" on the battlefield. In other words, even if they may have been holding back a bit, Snake was more than capable of succeeding.

In fact, the Shadow Moses Incident is really the only incident that absolutely required Snake to succeed up to a certain point, because Liquid had used Snake to unwittingly activate the nuclear weapon for him. Snake believed that the nuke was already active, so he took steps to deactive it (using special card keys that could only be used once.) In using the keys, he learned that he had been fooled and actually activated the nuke for them. After that point, Snake had no use.

Within the overall plot, however, some bosses actually did want Snake dead. Particularly the ones in MGS4, but their stories are a whole 'nother thing. (The believed that killing Snake would cure their PTSD.) But even then, Liquid knew that Snake would overcome them.

Another important point to make is that the main villain almost always had a Plan B. During the Tanker Incident, they only needed Snake to be there so that they could frame him for the sinking of the tanker. During the events of the Big Shell Incident, Snake was a wildcard. While he may have altered the events as they played out, the success/failure of the events (the S3 Plan) in no way required him. In the events of MGS4, the Sons of the Patriots Incident, Liquid was able to obtain a nuclear warhead and had a chance to blow the Patriots' satellite out of the sky. It was probably a long shot, so they tried to push Snake to do the job for them.

Sure, throughout the plot as a whole, they needed Snake alive, but it kind of comes back to the knowledge that Snake is going to win anyway. So they needed to give the impression of resistance in order to use him to their advantage.
#36ImaginaryDreamsPosted 2/25/2014 10:43:55 PM
F0Xhole posted...
ImaginaryDreams posted...
You mentioned several times that some of the villains were really wanting snake to succeed. (like for example snake at the MGS4 game) why even fight against snake than?

what's everyone objective?


It basically serves as a plot device/plot twist. After the original game, and after the events of ZanzibarLand, Snake was seen as a legendary hero, one who can succeed at all odds. Even with the best boss units, the odds are still in Snake's favor. He's just that damn good. Normal grunts are nothing but cannon fodder to him, so they are irrelevant.

This point is sort of supported in the Shadow Moses Incident. Snake has to destroy an M1 Tank, and he manages to do so. After he obtains a key from a fallen enemy, a conversation is heard between someone in the tank (Vulcan Raven, a FOXHOUNDer) and Liquid. Raven explains that Liquid got what he wanted, for Snake to proceed, but that Snake was a "demon" on the battlefield. In other words, even if they may have been holding back a bit, Snake was more than capable of succeeding.

In fact, the Shadow Moses Incident is really the only incident that absolutely required Snake to succeed up to a certain point, because Liquid had used Snake to unwittingly activate the nuclear weapon for him. Snake believed that the nuke was already active, so he took steps to deactive it (using special card keys that could only be used once.) In using the keys, he learned that he had been fooled and actually activated the nuke for them. After that point, Snake had no use.

Within the overall plot, however, some bosses actually did want Snake dead. Particularly the ones in MGS4, but their stories are a whole 'nother thing. (The believed that killing Snake would cure their PTSD.) But even then, Liquid knew that Snake would overcome them.

Another important point to make is that the main villain almost always had a Plan B. During the Tanker Incident, they only needed Snake to be there so that they could frame him for the sinking of the tanker. During the events of the Big Shell Incident, Snake was a wildcard. While he may have altered the events as they played out, the success/failure of the events (the S3 Plan) in no way required him. In the events of MGS4, the Sons of the Patriots Incident, Liquid was able to obtain a nuclear warhead and had a chance to blow the Patriots' satellite out of the sky. It was probably a long shot, so they tried to push Snake to do the job for them.

Sure, throughout the plot as a whole, they needed Snake alive, but it kind of comes back to the knowledge that Snake is going to win anyway. So they needed to give the impression of resistance in order to use him to their advantage.


Why didnt those who were against the patriots not allied with snake instead?
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#37F0XholePosted 2/26/2014 8:12:16 AM
ImaginaryDreams posted...
Why didnt those who were against the patriots not allied with snake instead?


Snake never knew about the Patriots until the Big Shell Incident, even though he had been there pawn his entire life. They had constantly used him to do their bidding. During the Shadow Moses Incident and the Guns of the Patriots Incident, he was their tool to stopping the events. Snake never realized it, though. He was just taking orders from people who were taking orders from other people who were taking orders from the Patriots.

Think of the Patriots as the stereotypical Illuminati, on a global and technological scale. The nanomachines inside of Snake, which were used to power his Codec (radio) and help regulate things like body temperature, blood sugar levels, and carry FoxDie, transmit data about everything that he sees or hears to his commanding officers and to the Patriots themselves. If the enemies slip up and make their true intentions known, the Patriots will shut down their attempts.

Think of it like a game of chess. You try to position your pieces to draw out a particular move from your opponent so that you can play the move that you want. But if your opponent knows what you are planning, they will ensure that your desired move isn't possible.

It's the same concept. If the Patriots get any hint of the enemies' true plans, they will take steps to prevent them from succeeding, maybe by firebombing the hell out of anyone and everyone (Snake included). They can't simply approach Snake and ask him to join them, because the Patriots will hear that conversation. Snake is the Patriots' tool; he is directly tied with the Patriots even though he doesn't realize it. The Patriots are willing to drop their guard to let Snake succeed, so the enemies need to do some acting to draw Snake out and then use him, unknowingly, against the Patriots.

I know, it sounds convoluted and messy, but basically, the Patriots see and hear everything. They are using Snake against the enemies, so the enemies need to trick them into thinking that Snake is succeeding in order to use him, someone the Patriots can trust upon, against them.
#38ImaginaryDreamsPosted 2/27/2014 1:01:20 AM
F0Xhole posted...
ImaginaryDreams posted...
Why didnt those who were against the patriots not allied with snake instead?


Snake never knew about the Patriots until the Big Shell Incident, even though he had been there pawn his entire life. They had constantly used him to do their bidding. During the Shadow Moses Incident and the Guns of the Patriots Incident, he was their tool to stopping the events. Snake never realized it, though. He was just taking orders from people who were taking orders from other people who were taking orders from the Patriots.

Think of the Patriots as the stereotypical Illuminati, on a global and technological scale. The nanomachines inside of Snake, which were used to power his Codec (radio) and help regulate things like body temperature, blood sugar levels, and carry FoxDie, transmit data about everything that he sees or hears to his commanding officers and to the Patriots themselves. If the enemies slip up and make their true intentions known, the Patriots will shut down their attempts.

Think of it like a game of chess. You try to position your pieces to draw out a particular move from your opponent so that you can play the move that you want. But if your opponent knows what you are planning, they will ensure that your desired move isn't possible.

It's the same concept. If the Patriots get any hint of the enemies' true plans, they will take steps to prevent them from succeeding, maybe by firebombing the hell out of anyone and everyone (Snake included). They can't simply approach Snake and ask him to join them, because the Patriots will hear that conversation. Snake is the Patriots' tool; he is directly tied with the Patriots even though he doesn't realize it. The Patriots are willing to drop their guard to let Snake succeed, so the enemies need to do some acting to draw Snake out and then use him, unknowingly, against the Patriots.

I know, it sounds convoluted and messy, but basically, the Patriots see and hear everything. They are using Snake against the enemies, so the enemies need to trick them into thinking that Snake is succeeding in order to use him, someone the Patriots can trust upon, against them.


wow.... feels like the real enemies were Snake and the real good guys was liquid/ocelot/solidus for trying to stop the patriots
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#39F0XholePosted 2/27/2014 1:02:35 PM
ImaginaryDreams posted...
wow.... feels like the real enemies were Snake and the real good guys was liquid/ocelot/solidus for trying to stop the patriots


Eh, yes and no. Morality is not so black and white in the Metal Gear games. "Bad" guys usually have good intentions, but they are certainly not pure. Ocelot, for example, has used torture, rape, murder, extortion, and I'm sure much more to reach his objectives. Snake and co. would rather not get into the political side of things. They don't want to see a world at war (Outer Heaven's main objective), and they don't want to see Metal Gears (ongoing grudge, I suppose), but otherwise they'd rather "let the world be".

Ocelot/Liquid/Solidus do really bad things for honorable reasons. They want to give people their freedom back, to free them from the control and manipulation of the Patriots. The problem being is that it would completely destroy civilized society as we know it. Even things like electricity, something we take for granted, would be scarce.

Snake and his crew managed to find a decent mix, albeit by happy accident. They got rid of the Patriots' control, but also kept the civilization intact.
#40ImaginaryDreamsPosted 2/27/2014 10:59:37 PM
F0Xhole posted...
ImaginaryDreams posted...
wow.... feels like the real enemies were Snake and the real good guys was liquid/ocelot/solidus for trying to stop the patriots


Eh, yes and no. Morality is not so black and white in the Metal Gear games. "Bad" guys usually have good intentions, but they are certainly not pure. Ocelot, for example, has used torture, rape, murder, extortion, and I'm sure much more to reach his objectives. Snake and co. would rather not get into the political side of things. They don't want to see a world at war (Outer Heaven's main objective), and they don't want to see Metal Gears (ongoing grudge, I suppose), but otherwise they'd rather "let the world be".

Ocelot/Liquid/Solidus do really bad things for honorable reasons. They want to give people their freedom back, to free them from the control and manipulation of the Patriots. The problem being is that it would completely destroy civilized society as we know it. Even things like electricity, something we take for granted, would be scarce.

Snake and his crew managed to find a decent mix, albeit by happy accident. They got rid of the Patriots' control, but also kept the civilization intact.


wow..... so throughout all this there was never really names given or person showing who the group of patriots are now huh? i mean just because the system was shut down but the people that runs the whole thing is still there right?
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