melee + TK only run?

#1ColJackPosted 3/9/2011 12:42:54 PM
do you think that it would be possible to do a run through ( probably on really easy ) using nothing but melee / stomp, TK and stasis?? ( appart from the sections where you HAVE to shoot things like the graby monster after the unitarian church etc.. ? )
#2Justinps2heroPosted 3/9/2011 1:57:36 PM
You'd need a bucket load of stasis in reserve, but probably possible. Fun, err no.
#3DarkTwistSSPosted 3/9/2011 8:35:29 PM
i dont think thats possible. the impossible parts are the brute on train, the tormentor, maybe the tripods, the final boss, etc.
#4DarkTwistSSPosted 3/9/2011 8:39:33 PM
o i didnt see the part where you said except the required shooting, but i still think its impossible. there must be some area where you cant melee the enemies nor have enough tk items for them. maybe at some place with many stalkers.
#5MrStarkillerPosted 3/9/2011 10:56:57 PM
ColJack: >title
>TK and melee only
WHELP

>actual suggestion
>the mighty trinity
>TK, Stasis and Melee
Yes. It should be quite doable with respect to sections like the Tormentor where you need to shoot an explosive tank or some garbage.

I've recently finished an Impossible No-Gun NUR+ in DS1 (It became One-Gun PC NUR+ for Hivemind). Loads of credits to spare (if it were harder, I could have loosened up on cash to 'pay my way' for progress in keeping loadings of med packs and stasis packs. That didn't prove necessary even with drops given most of the time.

With DS2, there are some vicious bastards like the buffed Leaper, but I don't readily see much that couldn't be overcome with good tactics, exploiting the environment/AI/objects, etc. It's nice that we have the option to lounge around a 100 seconds per stasis we want recovered. More so with regards to the NUR+ because...we only get two shots at base and they're less effective than the DS1 base stasis. Thus you take what you get. In a fire fight without a stasis station around where you may want stasis sooner than a 100 seconds later, you may want to look into stasis packs (if not a stasis canister).

>possible
Very much so I imgaine. Lots of skipping of fights is advised as priority.

>easy
I wouldn't waste my time on Easy. I'm talking Very Hard. And I wouldn't bother with such a run on Hard Core because I intend to die a lot in making tactics up as I go, testing objects, familiarizing, etc. I love checkpoints. DS1 had slow loads and no 'restart from last checkpoint' option (checkpoints reached via DYING *more waiting*). DS2 should be quicker in that regard (much appreciated). So Zealot is what should be discussed here. I've seen Normal and the melee is absurdly powerful there.

NOTE: I've one-shot a Leaper by slapping an arm as it got on a rail (losing a limb while on rails or non-zero-G wall crawling is fatal). DS2 foes cannot block the way they did int DS1 (especially not the returned Spitter/Puker globs that seem to instant kill if they hit the body though I've seen a near miss only remove a head of a Super Puker so it just deals extreme damage in a small area to Necros where it just slows us if we get hit).

>melee
Stomp and 'slaps' are both what I'd consider melee. The unfortunate consideration with the faster melee is that stomp only works on ground assigned targets now where it could be used on ANY target in range of the hit box (which extended off the ground) before. It's more rapid now, but range seems reduced from point of attack (minimal foward movement). Slaps can be aimed up and down (very nice change). Again, Slasher types cannot block anymore. I expect to have to test each Necro for whether stomp lands or not. For instance, can one stomp the leg joint of a Brute still?

>TK
So many glorious object classes. Some are single use exceptions while two classes are defined by it.

Class 1 - It lacks any real effect on foes while dealing the least damage, but it can delimb if sufficient damage happens to be dealt. Notably small things like cups, drops, etc. tend to fall into this category. Corpses used to be this in DS1 while severed limbs could be class 2 if I'm not mistaken. Most heads were single use (explode on impact), but rare exceptions existed such as the medical personnel turning into an Infector (puking yellow bile up before dying).

Class 2 - Tends to 'stun' foes while dealing light damage and has a fair chance of delimbing them or even setting off the explosion of Exploders and the like. Circular blades (fans, saws, etc.), wheel chairs, etc. Lots of these around. On a good day, you could fire one at the leg of a slasher for a delimb. Sometime it'll take more than one. A bit iffy. Vents in DS2 can be melee'd open (some of which have fan blades). I can't recall for sure, but the debree of a crate might be class 2.

Class 3 - Usually large objects, but this isn't a requirement. These deal fair damage, don't tend to delimb well if at all and are known for strong stuns if not knocking foes down/back. A downed foe cannot be struck with one of these again until it starts to get up (in DS1 anyway). Some of the larger cases can be used to hold off foes, block shots, create barricades/cover, etc.

NOTE: Class 2 and 3 are certainly advisable, but you would do well to not have to fall back on them (much less class 1). Beyond that, you should test their effectiveness of a given target. There are times when foes aren't quite targetable (or even invincible), don't flinch, etc. I don't believe this type is able to set-off Exploders, Crawlers, Pregnants, etc. Needs testing.

Class 4 - Explosive one-use types. Usually high damage. Explosive Canisters, Stasis Canisters (not high damage, but huge duration instead), organic bomb variants (Brutes, Exploders, Crawlers, globs, etc.), etc. Stasis Canisters don't seem to affect us and globs only slow us rather than deal damage...while the other cases can easily blow Isaac apart even at a distance. They require care as this is the class where you can get yourself killed outright. One might caution their use on Pregnants for not destroying their payload along with the body when struck.

Class 5 - Impaling one-use types that can be upgraded in DMG through the RIG using nodes. They can be used for delimbs. I don't know if this type can release Pregnant payloads. Perhaps. Leapers, Slasher variants (aside from the Ubermorph) and Stalkers are noted to give this upon delimb/death. Rods and other such objects are all around. Smash a window and some class 5 debree can be found. Slap the poles in the train for the same result. Class 5's tend to make a specific noise when in TK grip. The only exception to this is the mop which can be class 1 or class 5 seemingly at random (depends on the exact mop in question *where it came from*).

NOTE: A pity Javelin ammo don't get a damage perk from TK impale DMG upgrades *for primary* nor does secondary magically work on class 5's fired off. It would be nonsense, but exploitable all the same.

>stasis
As noted, 100 second waits at base. In a NUR+, you wouldn't have higher RIGs or upgrades to change this. Two shots at base with very short duration (3 seconds?). Stasis stations are important. As are stasis canisters. Exploiting chances to simply let it recharge would be advisable if a bit annoying. Stasis packs might be good to have around now and then (more so when you are stuck without upgrades). With the Advanced Suit and MAX'd stasis, things get a bit prettier. Still, 40 seconds is a Hell of a wait in combat.

>certain sequences
While sliding and hanging, you can use TK and stasis (same for zero-g flight). However, melee isn't an option. For the Brute encounter while hanging, you cannot TK (or stasis?). Same for the drag-you Church Tripod. Such things are clear exceptions where you'll need to open fire to progress (as with Drag Tentacles in DS1).

NOTE: Guardians will NOT likely be an exception. In DS1, you could kill them with objects. Obviously, class 4 would be great for them. Class 5 might work IF you could find enough of them (unlikely). Class 3 doesn't seem to be able to delimb them (not 100%) even when the tentacles are not flat against the wall. Class 1 is weak. Class 2 is probably the best alternative to class 4. Again, better to aim at tentacles that are out and not against the wall (though that can work). Their 'pods' are more vulnerable to being delimbed (even class 3 seems to work fine). Though the pod explosions can only hurt Isaac (shots can hurt others, but I've never gotten them to shoot the Guardian). Their delimbed bits are lame class 1's. The Guardian tentacles seem like more lame class 1's.

NOTE2: The final Nest has already been proven to be skippable by merely going past it to turn on gravity. Some others might be skippable. As for killing them, objects should work, but this hasn't been tested. Their 'pod' tosses are untested. They seem like class 4's when alive and shape like class 5's when dead. I'd be interested to see what they turn out to be. It's highly unlikely you can TK them while flung at you (likely considered 'alive' and therefor untargetable), but when dark and dead, surely they are an option to consider. If they are class 5, they would likely essentially prove to be a substitute bullet for our TK. If merely class 2, meh. Class 3? BURRR. Class 1? ...I very much doubt it.

NOTE3: In the demo, I slapped an Exploder to death without stasis or setting it off. Not likely a working tactic for higher settings where it would take longer to kill it (stasis aid). Tossing crap at its sack would set it off if well aimed. Though you may want to keep it for one-shotting a Brute or something.

There is much to know about TK objects. One sizable issue with them to remember is that environmental objects unload/load depending very much on the area they come from (which doesn't extend far). Necromorph 'territory' for their lost limbs (used as objects) tend to extend further. Drops don't seem to have a limit per se, but carrying around class 1's seems silly with regards to dealing damage to anything short of a desperate case with a Guardian or something. You cannot melee kill a Guardian and live in DS1. I killed two with melee at the same time, but only by exploiting knowledge that their decap tentacle would only register me dead after touching AND my slap spree being stopped by something (I stop inputting the command, I get shot/exploded, etc.). I doubt they changed them to allow for a melee strat or even an escape plan in DS2 (maybe slap the decap tentacle or trip it without getting touched and running away). It was immune to stasis while the rest wasn't (DS1).

Justinps2hero: >fun
>no
Opinion noted.

DarkTwist: >impossible
>tripods
They are no different than Brutes. I believe gesphenst already showed we could kill them with TK and melee antics.

>stalkers
AI boundaries, loads of objects, they bring their own class 5's to the party, etc. No, sir. I don't think they're the problem of such a run. Dividers might be more of an issue as such, but we can simply run away from such fights more often than not.
#6DarkTwistSSPosted 3/9/2011 11:50:54 PM
lol now i want to see someone try this.
#7ghostrider9876Posted 3/10/2011 3:46:29 AM
Why would anybody want to do this to themselves, though? This would be extremely difficult and frustrating, and entirely without point except as a meaningless self-imposed challenge. I'll never understand how some people draw satisfaction from this sort of thing...
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#8MrStarkillerPosted 3/10/2011 5:26:19 AM
ghostrider: >why boner
Because.

>do this to themselves
>not for
DEM IMPLICATIONS.

>extremely difficult
Maybe.

>frustrating
Could be.

>without point
>except
ohboyherewego.jpg

>meaningless
I'll just leave this here.

>self-imposed
Classy ain't it?

>challenge
Sounds good.

>never understand
"And you'll never have to." - Batman

>some people
Scholars, really.

>draw satisfaction
FEELS GOOD MAN

>this sort of thing
Not everyone can stay casual tier forever.

DarkTwist: >see
Pity that. I don't like to record. I only document. I barely even recorded any of my GoW work (of which I've done so much). Though you can certainly learn more than a little from a detailed bit of coverage as to what antics were pulled in a given place. It's what I've done for Vanquish as well.

Not much of a speed player anyway. One would have to choke on slow, methodical play, testing, failure, etc. without a monstrous amount of editing. Frankly, I'd rather use that time for porn (of which, I have 13GB to sort through with one recent download alone). I fear Spring Break just isn't going to be enough.

NOTE: If you want a sample of such antics, refer to gesphenst or projectz3. The former has some DS2 footage if I'm not mistaken. YT user "br0wner" doesn't limit himself to no-gun antics, but is worth watching anyway for speedy handling of NUR+ scenarios. Same for 'Wolfwood'.

One thing I wouldn't do is go without checkpoints/saves for No-Gun runs. I'll crush Hard Core, but not while holding myself back. I'll save that for Zealot. A love of safety nets if you will.
#9ghostrider9876Posted 3/10/2011 5:43:09 AM
And just who the hell are you calling casual? You think you're some kind of hardcore elite gamer? Just because I don't want to make the game more difficult for absolutely no reason and stand to gain nothing for winning, doesn't make me "casual tier." If you want to sit there and waste your time playing the game in a way it wasn't meant to be played and not accomplish anything when it's all said and done, you have fun with that. But don't think it makes you better than anyone else.
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#10OnyxGraphPosted 3/10/2011 7:20:47 AM
I did this in my 3rd playthrough but only in the easiest difficulty, I got reserved a lot of stasis about 3 to 4 slot. But the only problem is those boss battle keeps you dead always even in the easiest difficulty so I tried to disable a bit in melee+impalement for arsenal use then do trophy hunting and use Isaac's arsenal. This could be possible, I only reached Chapter 5 after meleeing+impaling those necromorphs before the battle of that Tormentor because you cant' reach it for meleeing that boss. Also after reaching Nicole in the end chapter, you cant' melee her because she has 1 instant kill after you get closer to her... This topic is almost impossible to achieve unlike me I'd rather go melee+impalement with the extra use of my fave arsenal and that's it.
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