Batman & Joker -{[ Spoilaaaahs! ]}-

#1Zinle_sanPosted 1/23/2013 11:14:27 PM
So what I've read some find Batman mourning over Jokers death odd
and say there's no reason for him to do that, and some people like it.
So...I was just curious and I'd like to hear your opinion of it here.

I've read some saying he is doing it because Joker was the closest replacement Batman could have as a friend
and someone saying that B actually enjoyed their time together and all kinda things,
but personally I think of the following (and again; this is just my personal though)

He isn't mourning for him at all. He is more like beating himself than mourning Joker.
Personally I think that Batman sure knows he can never cure and help the like of Two-Face, Penguin and Joker (for example)
but what I've understood of him, this is the thing really...
Even though Batman knows he can't help them, part of him is beating himself up for not being able to save Joker in the end.

Like I said, this is just my personal idea but...
I've always had this image of Batman being some kinda perfectionist that wants to save everyone to make up not being able to save his parents.
That's why he is beating himself down now for letting Joker die (even though he knows Joker caused it himself in the end)
He sees Jokers death more like an failure on what this 'Batman' is supposed to be.

...Once again I say this is all just IMO, and ironically I began to think Batman like this back in the days I saw the...
...I dare to say; Batman Forever...I'm not proud of this, but it's a fact...

Meh...I might just think of too deeply in this but...Oh well.
Your turn fellas.
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I'm here to ruin your day - sir, yes sir!!
#2NasteemanPosted 1/24/2013 11:55:42 AM
Actually, I think you got it just right.
#3cpo335Posted 1/24/2013 10:18:51 PM
Yeah, I understand your point. I also think he is punishing himself for letting him die, or at lease that's how Batman views it. Under his watch, no one dies, and nothing happens to the bad guys without his control. Except, thje Joker died, and Batman didn't plan that and clearly didn't think he deserved to die.

I also think the developers are highlighting the dichotomy between Bats and the Joker. The ying-yang that was also outlined in the painting in the beginning of the game (Cain and Abel) and the final scene of the game, which mirrored the painting. This game, at it's core, is a story about the relationship between Bats and the Joker.

I mean, if you think about it, they were practically brothers and this plot revolves around Batman attempting to find a cure for the illness beset on him and the Joker. So, in essence, Batman is not only trying to save himself, but also trying to cure his brother, the Joker. They also share the same blood, which is what causes the sickness in the first place.

So, to me, the story is much more than Batman fighting the Joker and trying to stop the plague. It's moreso about the relationship of the Batman and the Joker being closer than we normally see, and that they are actually brothers in a more profound sense.

Even if you look at it in the context of the painting, Batman is holding the Joker in the exact same way, signifying that he feels responsible for the Joker's death. Because, after all, Cain did kill his brother Abel, and felt terrible about it after. Batman feels the same way. He is Cain, at least he thinks he is.
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"...a single green light, minute and far away, that might have been the end of a dock."
#4Grizzle1981Posted 1/27/2013 3:16:00 PM
He doesn't think of Joker as ANY kind of friend or necessary force in his life. Batman's reason for putting on the mask has nothing to do with the joker but Joker's reason for committing crimes is to break Batman.

If Joker retires instead of dies, Batman continues the mission.
If Batman dies, Joker quites crime. (it's been written)

Batman's behavior could have several explainations:

1. He could have saved him but wasn't able to.
2. He realizes that this is a huge game changer in the way that the world will react to thinking he killed him.
3. Batman doesn't handle death very well. (if you bring up Talia, ask yourself "how much does death apply to an "al ghul".)
4. Batman probably wonders if he let it happen subconciously and blames himself.
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This post is 100% opinion unless stated otherwise.
#5NasteemanPosted 2/2/2013 3:48:08 PM
Something else to consider, something that we've all seem to have forgotten. It could be that Batman feels some responsibility for Joker existing in the first place. Remember, it was in a fight with Batman that the Joker fell in that vat of toxic chemicals that changed him into the white faced psycho clown. Considering Batman's personality, it's quite believable he feels a degree of guilt for what happened, even up to this ultimate end of the Joker's life.
#6ZechsPeacecraftPosted 2/3/2013 2:59:48 PM
I agree with you 100%. The only part that gets me confused is his attitude in Harley's Revenge. He is acting like his whole world has been shaken. Sure Talia died, but he must know that she will be revived at some point. In many ways it seems like Batman is mourning his greatest disciple. (Joker learned from the Batman after all, if only by observation)

Idk, to me it seems like Batman just lost the love of his life, and the way he "won't talk about Talia or Joker" suggests that he had some emotional connection with the Joker. I get why he wouldn't, or even shouldn't, but the fact remains that Batman is incredibly broken up to the point a lowly cop recognizes that Batman is not alright.

Something is wrong with the Batman, and I don't think I've heard a story yet that explains it.
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
#7Zinle_san(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 6:59:38 AM
ZechsPeacecraft posted...
I agree with you 100%. The only part that gets me confused is his attitude in Harley's Revenge. He is acting like his whole world has been shaken. Sure Talia died, but he must know that she will be revived at some point. In many ways it seems like Batman is mourning his greatest disciple. (Joker learned from the Batman after all, if only by observation)

Idk, to me it seems like Batman just lost the love of his life, and the way he "won't talk about Talia or Joker" suggests that he had some emotional connection with the Joker. I get why he wouldn't, or even shouldn't, but the fact remains that Batman is incredibly broken up to the point a lowly cop recognizes that Batman is not alright.

Something is wrong with the Batman, and I don't think I've heard a story yet that explains it.

Well to quote myself it's about that he is beginning to doubt of if 'Batman' has failed.
He created the Batman to plant horror to criminal hearts and minds, but hed never go as far as to kill someone.
That's kinda the point IMO. He won't talk about Talia or Joker because he sees them as his failures.
Granted; it's 95% sure Talia will be revived, but he still failed to save her in the first place.
Just like there was nothing he could do with his parents.

Batman so far he has managed to save countless of people, but he has also created enemies lie Scarecrow, Penguin, etc. and he knows he is only buying time for Gotham from them.
And as far as we know Batman is somehow related to how Joker became what he was by dropping him in the acid tank by accident,
meaning he feels he should have been the one to save or cure him in the end, even though he knew it wasn'tpossible.
And we don't know if Jason Todd is related i these Arkham series or not. If yes; he would be another of his failures.

By now he should be mentally broken. REALLY broken and he doubts if there's any reason to continue as Batman.
He thinks that maybe the 'Batman' haas died and he just "comes to work" everynight out of habbit and he thinks the 'Batman' isn't the "hope for weak against tyranny" like he intended.
Bruce is lost at the moment but he feels need to save everyone. That's why he come backs every night.
But he also remembers his failures and certainly doesn't want to talk of them because begins to doubt himself then.

Bottom line;
He knows he can't save everyone, yet he has to ty an does whatever he can.
But right now; he is in deep black abyss with no way out or no clear path to walk forward.
I wouldn't be surprised if they took the "Alfred...should I just...quit...?" card out in the next game.
(and since I don't want this topic to sidetrack; I believe the next game --- since it's suposd to be a prequel --- is still continuity for this game, but the main story is played as a flashbacks or something.
And I'd hope they'd do it like that because it could ad so much depth to Batmans story anyway.)

But...Yeah.
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I'm here to ruin your day - sir, yes sir!!
#8ZechsPeacecraftPosted 2/4/2013 4:12:36 PM
Very, very well put Zinie, and it does answer most of my concerns. However I still get a nagging feeling that the Joker meant more to Batman then just another failure. (I know that sentence doesn't give enough respect to what failure means to Batman)

For example Joker say's something along the lines of: "you better do something or we both die", to which Batman replies "I'm fine with that"

From that it seems that Batman is ok with the Joker dieing as long as Batman at the time wasn't actively trying to save him. At this point it almost seems like he might even be a little relieved that Joker is dead. so throughout Arkham City we have Batman who really is the opposite of what you're last post said. He believed in what he was doing, it wasn't a job or work for him it was his life, and it was a good life (or good enough ; ] )

And then all of a sudden Talia and Joker die (like you said I think we can safely assume that Batman knows Talia will come back alive at some stage, who's to say she hasn't died before and come back? So we can ignore her part) and he becomes this hulking depressive broody man, even more so than normal. Even to the point that a lowly cop can see that something isn't right.

Sorry if I'm burdening you, but I just don't see the logic in regards to the Joker specifically.

He's relatively happy being Batman -> gets into arkham city (still happy) -> poisoned by joker and is likely going to die as well as thousands of others (still happy) -> beats just about everybody (still happy) -> beats Hugo Strange (still happy) -> confronts Joker for the last time (still happy, but very worried about Talia) -> Joker dies really by his own hand (then all of a sudden not happy)

He's not relieved that many lives were saved that the Joker is gone or that his greatest enemy is gone or that Jason Todd's essentially been avenged (they mention somewhere that Jason is apart of this universe) or that he stopped a sprawling super-prison. He does all this great work, even for his lofty standards, and yet he is depressed and goes into isolation. Why? I don't think it's because he failed the Joker, he knows he didn't "after all you've done, I still would have saved you". He was just about to save the Joker; the Joker's death is on the Joker not Batman and I can't really see any way for the opposite to be true, even to someone like Batman who viewed his parents death as his fault.

I don't know. Hopefully I'm not burdening you, it's just an issue that I find incredibly interesting in an even more fascinating universe.
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"It's the stronger that make the weaker"- Milliardo Peacecraft
#9Zinle_san(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 5:25:50 AM
Well, one more theory I have in the mind is something I forgot from my previous post.
Like I said; dunno if Jason is in the Arkham universe, but if he is the talk he had with Batman in the Red Hood movie makes things kinda interesting.
You know...Him asking why Batman won't just kill the Joker. He literally says that everything would be better if Joker would be dead and that there's no curing him and then he mocks Batman for that.
"What...Your moral code just won't allow that? ...It's too HARD TO CROSS THAT LINE?!"
Where Batman replies that it would be far too easy to cross that line and that there's never been a day Batman didn't think of wanting to kill the Joker. That if he'd cross the line he'd never be able to come back.

But the point being; just like his parents he wasn't ABLE to save Joker in the end.
I could go on and on about that Joker is to blame for his death, but what I'm talking in short is like "You had a change to do it, though ****" -kinda thing.
You know...How people react when someone dies stuff. "If only I'd have done that" and so on.

But of course let us not forget that these two have become quite an icons for Batman series,
so it'd be no wonder if the people making Batman related stuff want to play with these characters.
If I would have been the story writer in this game I...Would actually have...wanted to make this kinda Batman he is now.
I dunno...Something about this...hmm..."damn Joker died" -mode seems just...right.
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I'm here to ruin your day - sir, yes sir!!