Discussion: The Decay System

#121CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 5/4/2010 7:22:07 PM
@that's only when it is traded to you, and it's in place so I can't trade a lvl 99 to my buddy just starting the game. That's a bit more severe than choosing to use the same weapon throughout an fps game.

No, you can train your Pokemon past that level and they will stop obeying, traded or not.


@This is actually the best example i've seen so far between weapon decay and what would be a similar thing in a racing game.

I'm no longer arguing weapon decay here.
I'm answering this "Why punish the player for doing what he's supposed to be doing?"
With this:
"its getting first place. That includes acceleration, braking on turns, etc (Being fast and having control). The difficulty and simplicity of this varies through the different kind of racing types. If it's only about who's going the fastest then you should go tell Sim racers that they are doing it wrong. Also, if corners weren't in the game no one would bother to buy racers. Hell some people find them boring as they are now. If decay isn't in a good fps i bet people will still have reason to buy it.

You are just proving my point as to why punishing the player for doing what he's "supposed' to be doing can make the game play more stimulating.
In a straight race, you're 'Supposed' to go fast.
In a run with turns, you're 'supposed' to go fast, without losing control.

The more wrenches you throw in, the more players will have to negotiate them, which changes the way you're 'supposed' to play.

And lastly, having your car slow down the longer you're in first place is a HORRIBLE comparison to decay.
Your guns don't decay when you're winning. they decay when you hit people with them.
It would be the equivalent of a game where the cars start out fast, but slow down a little every lap, unless you take a pit stop, or destroy your car.

Also, people seem to be forgetting something...
It wouldn't be just your gun that would decay. Its not like "OMQ I'm at such a disadvantage, my gun is decayed :U" Decayed gun =/= disadvantage. It certainly could be, but everybody's going to be using decayed weapons. you're only at a disadvantage if your gun is more decayed than theirs.

If I were to be playing a game with decay, this is probably how I'd use it...
I'd probably use my trusty pistol for my main, and shotty for my side ( assuming that's an option )
I'd rely mostly on my pistol, but if I'm ever in a situation where I'm in trouble, or I'm fighting somebody better than me... I'd switch over to the fresh shotty. A fresh shotty would be devastating to a player try to fight back with a decayed weapon. If I was successful with shotty ( didn't die ) I'd probably switch back to my pistol to keep shotty fresh.
My pistol would be at a slight disadvantage, being decayed all the time. But the fact that I have a fresh shotgun would make up for it.
#122UltimateFlame13Posted 5/5/2010 11:11:10 AM

From: CHAINMAILLEKID | #301
You are just proving my point as to why punishing the player for doing what he's "supposed' to be doing can make the game play more stimulating.
In a straight race, you're 'Supposed' to go fast.
In a run with turns, you're 'supposed' to go fast, without losing control.


The problem with this is you are saying a part of a game that pretty makes up a majority of the gameplay is a punishment. Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds to call turning in a racing game a punishment? Just because you want to over simplify the gameplay to "drive fast" doesn't mean that everything else is a punishment. There's a difference between a punishment and and a challenge (or fun for that matter). If something like turning in racing is a punishment, then you must think that not being able to use weapons with infinite power for one hit kills is a punishment as well. You would have to think that everything in every single game other than "kill, go fast, kill final boss, etc" is a punishment if you believe turning in racing is a punishment, or do you just believe what you need to in order to justify what you are trying to say?

Just because something is used to make the game more interesting does not mean it is also a punishment. However, something like a decay system on every single weapon that weakens the players damage for killing other players does not create enough of a challenge (or other benefits) for some people to not think of it as a punishment holding the player back unnecessarily. I'll restate a point from my last post for you, turning in racing is a major game component; take it out and what happens? No one buys the game. Don't have decay in an fps? I bet people will still buy it. You're comparing major game components (and calling them punishments by the way) that make or break the game to this little add on of an idea and saying that both are one in the same. If you can't see why that is wrong then it would appear you have gone beyond the point of reason and there is no point in continuing this discussion.
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Everything I've learned about life can be summed up into three words: It goes on -Robert Frost
Playing: Dragon Age Origins, Monster Hunter Tri
#123UltimateFlame13Posted 5/5/2010 1:23:54 PM

From: CHAINMAILLEKID | #301
No, you can train your Pokemon past that level and they will stop obeying, traded or not.


Oh, and check again because it only applies to traded pokemon. If not, explain how I could train my starter past 20 before I had the first gym badge and still have perfect control over him? If you want further proof this walk through even agrees with me (and I'm sure others do as well but I don't want to go look at every single one) http://www.gamefaqs.com/ds/960099-pokemon-heartgold-version/faqs/57737

Once you beat Falkner, you will get TM51 (Roost) and the Zephyr Badge. All
Pokemon you get in trades up to level 20 will now obay you, and you can now
use Rock Smash out of battle as well.

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Everything I've learned about life can be summed up into three words: It goes on -Robert Frost
Playing: Dragon Age Origins, Monster Hunter Tri
#124MC_Brian1Posted 5/5/2010 4:21:05 PM
A decay system could held promote variety but it would also force you to get good with everything. This may sound like a good thing, but it's not. Different people have different playstyles and no game should force me to change how I want to play.

In Fable, you could be a ranged character, a magic using character, or a melee character. In Fable 2, everyone was a jack of all trades. Not for the same reason, but you were. And that's one of the biggest criticisms of the game. I would personally hate if in MW2, I would be on a 7 kill streak with my ACR and then the game makes it even more of a peashooter, so I have to pick up an SMG off the ground. This disrupts the pace and I have to start playing CQC instead of ranged, don't you think?

It's the kind of thing that may work in theory but not in practice. In a perfect world it'd prevent spam and weaken overpowered weapons. In practice, you'd be raging because you're about to die since your weapon weakened in the middle of a big killstreak.
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no wonder fox's father died... dumbass was wearing shades in space - gameheadache
#125CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 5/7/2010 5:21:00 PM
"It's the kind of thing that may work in theory but not in practice. In a perfect world it'd prevent spam and weaken overpowered weapons. In practice, you'd be raging because you're about to die since your weapon weakened in the middle of a big killstreak."

You can't just say it would turn out that way in practice anymore than I can say that the way I imagine decay is the way it would turn out.
Sorry but... there is really no way to tell without actually going in and messing with it.


"I would be on a 7 kill streak with my ACR and then the game makes it even more of a peashooter"

If you got a 7 kill streak with it, a bit of decay won't slow you down much. You're certainly good enough to just ignore the fact that its decayed, and to keep charging though.

"A decay system could held promote variety but it would also force you to get good with everything."

Actually, far from it. At most it could only force you to be good at a few weapons. It could never force you to be good at all of them.
And the system would not be there to make you use other weapons as much as it would be make it easier to use new weapons, at least in my mind.
Similar ideas, but I think its a significant difference.

"In Fable, you could be a ranged character, a magic using character, or a melee character. In Fable 2, everyone was a jack of all trades. And that's one of the biggest criticisms of the game."

I agree here, I want people to be good at what they like, and be able to go with it.




@Oh, and check again because it only applies to traded pokemon.

you cited a heartgold guide.
What about for 1st gen? Red/blue. I'm pretty sure I had a clefable I over trained which stopped obeying me. And I was the only one with red/blue so I know I didn't trade it...

Also, I'm not saying turning is a punishment... I'm saying turning makes you slow down.
I know many games where going too fast around a turn results in some pretty harsh punishment.
Some will even end the race for you.
The turn punishes people going too fast. But you're supposed to go fast right?
Its a good example of a game punishing someone for doing something they're supposed to.
#126UltimateFlame13Posted 5/8/2010 7:53:14 AM

From: CHAINMAILLEKID | #305
Also, I'm not saying turning is a punishment


...

The turn punishes people going too fast.


Its a good example of a game punishing someone for doing something they're supposed to.


...?

From: CHAINMAILLEKID | #301
You are just proving my point as to why punishing the player for doing what he's "supposed' to be doing can make the game play more stimulating.
In a straight race, you're 'Supposed' to go fast.
In a run with turns, you're 'supposed' to go fast, without losing control.


you cited a heartgold guide.
What about for 1st gen? Red/blue. I'm pretty sure I had a clefable I over trained which stopped obeying me. And I was the only one with red/blue so I know I didn't trade it...


I haven't played 1st gen in a long time so I don't remember much, but 1st gen is the past. If you're talking about what's in a pokemon game you need to specify that you're talking about the old games. Otherwise the most recent games apply. Either way the mechanic was changed so why bring it up? It doesn't exist anymore.
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Everything I've learned about life can be summed up into three words: It goes on -Robert Frost
Playing: Dragon Age Origins, Monster Hunter Tri