Discussion: Regenerating health

#1GenericCommentsPosted 5/2/2010 9:38:31 AM
In many first-person shooters regenerating health has become rather common. It allows games that have it to have a faster pace as players do not have to worry about their health as much. However, the negative effects of regenerating health, I believe, make the feature game breaking.

First of all regeneration favors camping. A camper can make the most out of regeneration because he will always play defensively. When playing defense you, usually, have more time to recover. So regeneration allows the camping player to always have a health advantage compared to actively fighting players.

Regenerating health also always gives a stronger player the advantage. If say a strong player and a weak player fight the weak player will lose. The strong player will regenerate by the time the weak player gets to the strong player and the weak player will be in the same disadvantaged fight. In other words regeneration allows the strong to dominate the weak. Without regenerating health the weak player will at least be able to take down the strong player over time.

Last, this allows avoidance tactics where a player can run away until he is fully healed. This doesn't make the least bit of sense. If you have been shot in the gut and you are bleeding like crazy you are going to run and self-regenerate. This makes no sense.

A solution, I propose, is limited regeneration. If a player takes damage a fraction of that damage will be permanent and the rest will be able to regenerate. For example, say a player gets hit by a grenade and loses 75% of his health. 25% of his max health will remain permanent damage, health that can not regenerate. He can regenerate the health that is not permanent damage. So this player, if he wins that fight without taking more damage, will now have a max health that is 75% of his original health. When the player dies and re-spawns his max health will be 100% again. The values are only hypothetical examples. This discussion is not about these values the focus is on the idea.

The other option is no regenerating at all where all damage is permanent.

Any ideas are welcome but remember, this is a discussion. Arguments must be reasonable. Points must have evidence. No trolling and happy discussing.
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#2CelticLink94Posted 5/2/2010 9:50:46 AM
I think that instead of health regeneration, there should be healthpacks lying around... they had them in single player at the beginning of TCon1 as the only way to heal, and I liked that more. So if someone trys to run away and get the health packs, someone will be well aware of where they are going and can head them off. It sort of worked like this in MP:H, as when someone disappeared after a fire fight, they didn't really have the luxury of hiding as everyone knew they were headed to the nearest energy thing, and the chase would begin. This also adds more flavor, IMO, to deathmatches as instead of shooting, hiding, shooting, hiding, there would be more of an objective feel where you get into a fight, then must run and gun in defense until you can heal yourself.
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#3GenericComments(Topic Creator)Posted 5/2/2010 10:33:04 AM
I believe health packs are overpowered. The benefit of having a health pack in a fight will strongly favor the player that can get it. This will lead to health pack camping or abuse.

I have a few solutions to this.
Health limitations where some damage is permanent. The player that picks up the health pack will be able to heal himself however he won't be able to recover the permanent damage. This will make health pack abuse much less effective.

Health packs don't heal fully. A health pack healing full health is easily abused. A health pack that only heals half the health is much more difficult to abuse.

Health packs spawn less. Self-explanatory.

Or maybe a combination of these ideas.
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#4BlaeuPosted 5/2/2010 11:09:30 AM
First of all regeneration favors camping.

Not really. People will camp in all FPS games, however the only way health regenerating favors it is when they need to regenerate it. If they couldn't regenerate health and took damage, they are more likely to camp for a much longer time seeing as how they are so close to death.

In many ways, health regeneration was placed into FPS titles to prevent camping.

As for health packs, they were laying around in TCon MP as well and didn't have a huge impact on the game. The biggest I can remember is taking the central health packs in Complex as it allowed you to have a good view, it was some what defensive, and you had the health pack.

What people need to remember is that someones health (typically) only starts to regenerate after combat, meaning they cannot have taken a hit for a certain amount of time before their health starts to come back. This typically means they are no longer in combat due to having run away, or killed the guy who was shooting at him.

Also, just because someones health can regenerate doesn't make them harder to kill. TCon had health regeneration and lets look at a few guns.

WP -- Bounce around walls, charge shot bounced could be a OHKO
USP -- 3HKO to the head
SR -- Charge shot head shot is a OHKO, or three single shots to the head
SCAR -- Single burst to the head equals dead
DA -- Charge shot is a OHKO
SPAS -- OHKO in range
MP5 -- 3-4 shots to the head, fast rate of fire
TPC -- Explosive rounds required two or three shots

Players in TCon had a lot of life compared to a game like CoD, however they still were easily killed if you could aim your weapon. If you cannot kill someone due to health regeneration, then you are not landing your shots very well.
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#5SupahShnipaPosted 5/2/2010 11:22:36 AM
"SCAR -- Single burst to the head equals dead"
2 actually.

I personally like health regen though It should stay slow, like it was in the original.
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#6UltimateFlame13Posted 5/2/2010 12:03:48 PM

From: Blaeu | #004
What people need to remember is that someones health (typically) only starts to regenerate after combat, meaning they cannot have taken a hit for a certain amount of time before their health starts to come back. This typically means they are no longer in combat due to having run away, or killed the guy who was shooting at him.


This. As long as the regen doesn't activate the split second a person isn't taking damage then he shouldn't be getting full health when you are attacking someone. If someone does then it's your fault for not keeping pressure on that person.

From: GenericComments | #001
First of all regeneration favors camping. A camper can make the most out of regeneration because he will always play defensively. When playing defense you, usually, have more time to recover. So regeneration allows the camping player to always have a health advantage compared to actively fighting players.


Regeneration also allows the person who gets ambushed by a camper to have full health beforehand. If I was in a battle and I'm stuck at a 1/4 of my health I become a prime target for anyone camping a door I walk through. Whereas if I have full health I at least have a chance to react or back out of the room (in conduit, since we have quite a bit of health).

Taking away health regen wouldn't lower the amount of campers either. I remember back in the first CoD game there were still tons of campers. Campers camp because it gets them easy kills and less deaths. Taking away health regen wouldn't allow them to get enough kills to offset the advantage they see in camping, so they'll still camp because it's easier for them.

From: GenericComments | #001
Regenerating health also always gives a stronger player the advantage. If say a strong player and a weak player fight the weak player will lose. The strong player will regenerate by the time the weak player gets to the strong player and the weak player will be in the same disadvantaged fight. In other words regeneration allows the strong to dominate the weak. Without regenerating health the weak player will at least be able to take down the strong player over time.


Shouldn't the strong player dominate the weak though? If the strong player is stronger because he knows how to play and has more experience then he's obviously earned the right to dominate. The weak player will just have to practice to get better or just accept that it's a game and there will always be better people. It's not like the strong player will absolutely never be taken down just because he regens.
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#7N64FTWxDPosted 5/2/2010 12:32:33 PM
I liked health regeneration. If there was a full game in streets with health packs, they would go to quickly and the people not getting health packs could die easily. It would also be a problem if someone had a SMAW and kept firing shot after shot trying to kill you while health packs are gone. You'd be totally defenseless until a health pack re-spawns.
#8CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 5/2/2010 12:40:03 PM
I have been thinking about this ever since i mentioned it in the decay thread.

There are only three FPS I have owned.

Metroid Prime Hunters.
Geist.
Tcon.

I mentioned that w/ regen, it gives the gameplay advantage to the winner of the shoot out.
I do think that stimulates competitive play, at least a bit.
MPH had a interesting way of giving the winner a similar advantage, You can hold more health than you spawn with. That means, if a player wins a match, and loses LESS than half their health, they are instantly at an advantage, and in a good position to kill them as soon as they spawn.
But it only give the advantage is the skill level gap is large enough.

I really created a HUGE wall between casual and hardcore player. One thing I have learned, is the 'hardcore' love dominating noobs probably more than they like winning an equal handed match.
and MPH really just made it impossible.
I had a friend in F5, and I was just a casual player, and he was really the only person I played.
In 200-300 matches, I only won him ~10 times. as far as community goes, it really elevated good players to the status of a god.
Its good for the people who acheive this god status, but bad for everyone else. A true hardcore game.

I think the big thing Health Regen does, is it creates this gap. I think in MPH it was too big, peoples heads got too big, and the competitive scene ended up tearing itself apart.

Of course, there still needs to be some skill gap between good and bad players. But IDK.


Geist worked in an even more interesting way.
There are health packs, which are Heavily relied on. Or you can dispossess and find a new host with full health, which is relied upon on stages without health :p

Dispossession has a number of disadvantages. Your old host is vulnerable for 5 seconds after you leave, if you are hit, you are penalized. BUT, your host is also your weapon, meaning... you have no idea what hosts/weapons are going to be available for you to take.

IDK why, But I feel geist is the most comfortable to play.

Tcon... well.
I like the health regen, BUT, I do think it should be balanced out in a way that creates a better skill gap, in Tcon it wasn't really a problem though, due to the grenades, and power weapons, etc.
but once every one of those is balanced, we may run into a gap problem.
#9GenericComments(Topic Creator)Posted 5/2/2010 12:40:11 PM
Regenerating health does not favor camping. I suppose it doesn't favor campers or non-campers. I wonder what I was thinking when I said that.

As for health packs, they were laying around in TCon MP as well and didn't have a huge impact on the game.

Yes it does. Health packs have a huge effect on the outcome of fights. Let's say at the beginning of a fight you are hit with a radiation grenade. Normally this would be death. However if you can get a health pack you just saved your life. Radiation grenade is the best example but a health pack can save a player that is in a critical state or near death. Mid-fight health packs can literally turn a fight around. Health packs are the difference between life and death, a win and a loss.

What people need to remember is that someones health (typically) only starts to regenerate after combat, meaning they cannot have taken a hit for a certain amount of time before their health starts to come back. This typically means they are no longer in combat due to having run away, or killed the guy who was shooting at him.

This is not correct as in a long range fight. If you are put in a critical state you can take cover until you have fully healed and your enemy can't do much about that. Unless of course your enemy has a phaze rifle but that is beside the point. The point is you can recover, mid-fight, via avoidance due to regeneration.

Also, just because someones health can regenerate doesn't make them harder to kill. TCon had health regeneration and essentially you say it is still easy to kill people.

With health regeneration you can avoid death by fleeing. Stating that weapons are capable of killing is not exactly relevant. My point is a quick death can be avoided with retreat, regeneration, and a counter-strike.

Shouldn't the strong player dominate the weak though? If the strong player is stronger because he knows how to play and has more experience then he's obviously earned the right to dominate. The weak player will just have to practice to get better or just accept that it's a game and there will always be better people. It's not like the strong player will absolutely never be taken down just because he regens.

I know a player that is better should dominate. However does this mean we should throw in a trait that the strong player can make the most out of? Why would we give the player that is already at an advantage an extra boost?
I will use a hypothetical situation to support my point. There is a death-match. One player is a professional gunslinger the rest are noobs. If they allow health regeneration in this situation the gunslinger can dominate the game forever. If they take out regeneration all the hits the gunslinger takes over time will add up and he will die. It is more fair to have no regeneration.
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#10Kirby_Pwns_AllPosted 5/2/2010 12:47:21 PM
I like the new system in Halo: Reach, where there is a certain amount of health as well as shields. When your shields are done, you lose health, which doesn't regenerate. Or, you could just have less health and decrease regeneration time, because that seems like it would punish campers somewhat.