Discussion: Regenerating health

#51SA_X_Mk_IIPosted 5/6/2010 10:04:39 AM
@GenericComments: See, here's the thing: you are tring to make health regen sound like a major issue that's giving such a huge advantage to good players and crippling players that aren't so good. My playstyle is usually the run and gun type. In smaller or tighter maps I'll start moving and never stop, using a CQC weapon. After rushing through a number of enemies and surviving, my health isn't too great unless I was very lucky. I can still end up with high kill streaks and I spend most of my time with low health. Does the regen help me? Yes. Does it actually have a huge impact? No. While it's true that I can regen my health, unless I stop and camp for a while, regen is not even close to being the same as just finding a health pack and continuing on. Unless the person is already camping to begin with, them stopping to regen will actually slow down their kills.

I'm not saying that your idea is a bad one, I wouldn't mind having something like Kirby_Pwns_All suggested if they actually were going to change the regen around, but I honestly don't see a problem with how it is now. The ranks match players up by skill anyways, so it's not like you'll have a long time vet go up against a complete noob/newb, so the 'huge gap' isn't a big issue. Besides, if more maps are wide open, that alone will most likely reduce the camping spots and make it harder to run and/or hide, therefor reducing the effects of the regen without even touching the regen itself.



@Aile_Wing: I guess I must be one of the only people that do that then. I'd much prefer help take down the stronger player and then finish off the weaker ones (getting more kills) then trying to focus on the weak ones and get killed by either side.


Having installed UT2004 again a couple of days ago, TCon is much better with the health thing than UT is if you think regen is a problem. With the playstyle I usually have in both games, regen is a lot more restrictive and not as major than health packs are. I forgot how fun it was to have 199 health, 150 shield, a full ammo Flak Cannon and just plow through enemy after enemy...
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#52MC_Brian1Posted 5/6/2010 4:51:51 PM
In a game like UT with small/medium sized maps and movement speeds of over 9000 mph, you can typically get to a health pack really fast and probably not end up in any danger. It is a lot of fun to get your armor and health all the way up and run around with something like the Flak Cannon or Shock Rifle secondary fire, but generally I think health regeneration works better. Removing health regeneration just seems like it won't add anything to the game, making it unnecessary.
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#53GenericComments(Topic Creator)Posted 5/6/2010 6:01:55 PM
See, here's the thing: you are tring to make health regen sound like a major issue that's giving such a huge advantage to good players and crippling players that aren't so good.

Regeneration and healing is a major issue. How it works determines how you play the game. You play carefully and strategically if your life never recovers or straight up and fast if your life easily recovers.

I don't care how you play the game and you presenting your play-style holds no relevance to the discussion.

Does it actually have a huge impact? No.

This statement badly hurts your credibility. If you fail to see the importance of health than I'm not sure what to say.

While it's true that I can regen my health, unless I stop and camp for a while, regen is not even close to being the same as just finding a health pack and continuing on.

No one said that.

Unless the person is already camping to begin with, them stopping to regen will actually slow down their kills.

This is not about killing a lot. People don't ever need to stop and regenerate

The ranks match players up by skill anyways, so it's not like you'll have a long time vet go up against a complete noob/newb, so the 'huge gap' isn't a big issue.

Rank does not represent skill very well at all i.e. noob that has high-rank from playing a lot vs. pro who made a new account. Your counter does not stand against my point.

Besides, if more maps are wide open, that alone will most likely reduce the camping spots and make it harder to run and/or hide, therefor reducing the effects of the regen without even touching the regen itself.

Sadly Conduits maps are mostly hallway making it easy to retreat, regenerate, and retaliate.

The longer you live, the slower your health regenerates

There is a problem. This system is arbitrary as you may live long for various reasons, for example running fleeing enemies, being idle, camping, not seeing any action, playing defense, hiding, or simply being away from your wii while online, you are penalized.

Also, this would work best if every time the player got a kill (maybe even a kill/consecutive kills on specific players to avoid stronger players preying on weaker players or annoying people who go for one person for no reason), their health regeneration increases by x percent or x seconds.

I think you are saying the one that is repetitively killed will get more regeneration. That's an idea I will have to think about.

I also think, however, that the ELO ratings will help a lot, because when you're playing against people who are the same skill level as you are, everything is more equal anyway.

Better matchmaking would be ideal. In my experience ranks do not accurately represent skill. If it does work well than that would be very good.
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#54SA_X_Mk_IIPosted 5/7/2010 6:42:38 AM

From: GenericComments | #053
Regeneration and healing is a major issue. How it works determines how you play the game. You play carefully and strategically if your life never recovers or straight up and fast if your life easily recovers.


There is a difference between "Major Aspect" and "Major Issue". How health recovers, if it does, is a major aspect of FPS games, as they change the feel of the game itself as you said. However, it isn't an "issue" unless the style is one that you personally don't like. I love fast paced FPS games, so it doesn't really affect me. You don't seem to like that style, so to you it's a problem.

I don't care how you play the game and you presenting your play-style holds no relevance to the discussion.


Also, since you seem to be pushing the way you play the game, I would think it does.

This statement badly hurts your credibility. If you fail to see the importance of health than I'm not sure what to say.


It's fun to ignore the point of a long description and just single out one line, right? I never said health doesn't have an impact, I said that, for a player that doesn't usually camp and will actively seek out targets to dispose of (how I play), regen doesn't really make that much of a difference. Since you play a 'survivalist', I can see how you don't understand how that can be possible, but the limited amount of time I have between encounters (if I actually get some time) is not enough to recover any significant amount of health.

This is not about killing a lot. People don't ever need to stop and regenerate


Yet... you say that health regen favors camping... which is basically stopping and avoiding combat in order to regen...

Rank does not represent skill very well at all i.e. noob that has high-rank from playing a lot vs. pro who made a new account. Your counter does not stand against my point.


Noob that plays a lot should not be a noob to begin with, their own fault for not improving.
Pro making a new account would rank up very fast, making it so they'd only play a small number of games at low rank.

Sadly Conduits maps are mostly hallway making it easy to retreat, regenerate, and retaliate.


Yes, The Conduit maps are like that, but as I remember correctly this is the board for Conduit 2, which has already been rumored (or stated) that it will have bigger and more open maps.

There is a problem. This system is arbitrary as you may live long for various reasons, for example running fleeing enemies, being idle, camping, not seeing any action, playing defense, hiding, or simply being away from your wii while online, you are penalized.


The problem? If you are doing all the things you mentioned (except the last one), you shouldn't be losing large amounts of health to begin with, as you are playing in a way to reduce health loss. Therefor, having health regen slower shouldn't affect you that much.

Better matchmaking would be ideal. In my experience ranks do not accurately represent skill. If it does work well than that would be very good.


There is no match making system out (that I have seen) that can accurately measure 'skill'. Besides, the longer you play the game and the higher your rank gets, the better you should become as a player.
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#55GenericComments(Topic Creator)Posted 5/7/2010 5:38:17 PM
There is a difference between "Major Aspect" and "Major Issue". How health recovers, if it does, is a major aspect of FPS games, as they change the feel of the game itself as you said. However, it isn't an "issue" unless the style is one that you personally don't like. I love fast paced FPS games, so it doesn't really affect me. You don't seem to like that style, so to you it's a problem.

What is the point of pointing out the differences between these two words that have the same connotative meaning? Whether you like to call it an issue or an aspect is entirely up to you and holds no relevance at all.

Also, since you seem to be pushing the way you play the game, I would think it does.

The difference between what I said and what you said is I talked about what people could do whereas you talked about yourself. If you are going to say that when I talked about retreating and regenerating as myself that would be incorrect. I presented that as a viable tactic which anyone can do and it stands as a problem in regenerating health. I speak for a more general audience you speak for yourself.

It's fun to ignore the point of a long description and just single out one line, right? I never said health doesn't have an impact, I said that, for a player that doesn't usually camp and will actively seek out targets to dispose of (how I play), regen doesn't really make that much of a difference. Since you play a 'survivalist', I can see how you don't understand how that can be possible, but the limited amount of time I have between encounters (if I actually get some time) is not enough to recover any significant amount of health.

That was a terrible misread on my part, I apologize. I chose to respond without a clear understanding and I hurt my credibility. Bad bad bad. Now that your point is more clear I will readdress it. You are essentially saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that when you play you fight actively so regeneration does not matter due to constant fighting. If that is correct I want to know where are you going saying health regeneration is irrelevant to you?

Yet... you say that health regen favors camping... which is basically stopping and avoiding combat in order to regen...

I dropped the point that regeneration favors camping because through this discussion that point did not hold up well. However avoidance strategies are supported very well by regeneration as people can make full recoveries while running away with the current system.

Noob that plays a lot should not be a noob to begin with, their own fault for not improving.
Pro making a new account would rank up very fast, making it so they'd only play a small number of games at low rank.


Rank systems that are based on experience points alone are not accurate. These systems fail to represent skill because they don't take into account: time played, deaths, skill of opponents or game mode.
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#56GenericComments(Topic Creator)Posted 5/7/2010 5:38:37 PM
Yes, The Conduit maps are like that, but as I remember correctly this is the board for Conduit 2, which has already been rumored (or stated) that it will have bigger and more open maps.

Well we'll have to wait and see for this.

The problem? If you are doing all the things you mentioned (except the last one), you shouldn't be losing large amounts of health to begin with, as you are playing in a way to reduce health loss. Therefor, having health regen slower shouldn't affect you that much.

So because they play with that style they will face a penalty. Whereas people that rush enemies or are fighting as soon as they spawn will have better regeneration. This system seems to favor the active fighter.

There is no match making system out (that I have seen) that can accurately measure 'skill'. Besides, the longer you play the game and the higher your rank gets, the better you should become as a player.

Ranks do not accurately represent player skill.
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#57SA_X_Mk_IIPosted 5/9/2010 11:10:06 AM

From: GenericComments | #055
What is the point of pointing out the differences between these two words that have the same connotative meaning? Whether you like to call it an issue or an aspect is entirely up to you and holds no relevance at all.


There is a difference between an "aspect" and an "issue". Saying "issue" would mean there is a problem with whatever you are pointing out.

The difference between what I said and what you said is I talked about what people could do whereas you talked about yourself. If you are going to say that when I talked about retreating and regenerating as myself that would be incorrect. I presented that as a viable tactic which anyone can do and it stands as a problem in regenerating health. I speak for a more general audience you speak for yourself.


I talked about the kind of tactic that I use (an active fighter that is always pushing forward), which a lot of other people use. You talked about the kind of tactic that you seem to use (the survivalist which plays more defensively), that a lot of other people use as well. The Offensive player and the Defensive players are both viable tactics and health regen favors the Defensive player over the Offensive one.

That was a terrible misread on my part, I apologize. I chose to respond without a clear understanding and I hurt my credibility. Bad bad bad. Now that your point is more clear I will readdress it. You are essentially saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that when you play you fight actively so regeneration does not matter due to constant fighting. If that is correct I want to know where are you going saying health regeneration is irrelevant to you?


Not really saying that it's irrelevant, but since the health regen only kicks in after you've been out of 'combat' for a few seconds, it doesn't make a very big difference to someone with a play style similar to mine. I'm basically rushing from one fight to another and am almost always 'in combat', so if I do regen health it's usually not a big amount.

I dropped the point that regeneration favors camping because through this discussion that point did not hold up well. However avoidance strategies are supported very well by regeneration as people can make full recoveries while running away with the current system.


Oh, sorry for bringing it up again if you dropped it.

Rank systems that are based on experience points alone are not accurate. These systems fail to represent skill because they don't take into account: time played, deaths, skill of opponents or game mode.


I know, but there hasn't been a good system made which does take all that into account unfortunately. However, the system that was in place in The Conduit is still one that should show improvement with an increase in rank. Experience is gained by killing and the more someone kills, the better they should be at it. It might not be the best system, but it works to a point.

So because they play with that style they will face a penalty. Whereas people that rush enemies or are fighting as soon as they spawn will have better regeneration. This system seems to favor the active fighter.


The way regen is now favors a defensive fighter. The change to regen that you and other have proposed (to limit it or reduce it) would favor active fighters. You can't really complain that the active fighter is being favored when they would only be favored by the change you are trying to discuss...
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#58Vagabond_CookiePosted 5/10/2010 1:35:55 PM
First, FTW anybody who used to play MPH.
Best hardcore game ever.
Second, the health system DOESN'T MATTER.
Regenerating health or no, any difference in skill will cause the more skillful to win skirmishes.
Clever programming and gameplay might make it so that people die easily or that someone could get a lucky kill, and occasionally a misthrown grenade might finish somebody else off.
HOWEVER, this does not change the fact that skill is power in a grand majority of games. (The rest are all Mario Kart and SSBB w/ items)
Instead of complaining about the health system, which you will all undoubtedly accept when the game comes out regardless, you should vouche for game modes that allow you to play with people at your own skill level.
Halo does a *decent* job of keeping it fair in Matchmaking.
Restarts and specialty players, as well as Social in general tend to keep the system from being flawless, but it seems to work well enough.


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#59Aile_WingPosted 5/10/2010 1:51:43 PM
GenericComments:
Nonetheless, camping around supply points is a viable tactic as the player, in the video, was able to save himself from a critical state by camping near a health pack. Ammo Caches are, supposedly, removed but health packs are still up for question.


How many kills did he get down there, though? Two? Yeah, great camping spot if you want to stay alive. Of course, the location itself would probably allow anyone to avoid most detection by others. But if you're going for kills, which is necessary in order to win most games, who in their right mind camps in the underground room in Sanctum? And that's my point. The locations of most ammo caches and weapon packs aren't good as killing camping spots. Sure, you may get a few kills here and there, but the location really prevents one from picking off ten people before having to move.

Situations can be that simple if you have radar and regeneration which makes avoidance even more susceptible to abuse.

You're not even factoring in the possibility of others shooting at you or someone in your way preventing you from getting to that health pack. Once again, great example for one-on-one matches, but games with more people in them aren't as easy to predict.

Better matchmaking would be ideal. In my experience ranks do not accurately represent skill. If it does work well than that would be very good.

Maybe something like the Metroid Prime: Hunters ranking? One gets points for winning (the amount of points one gets depends upon the ranks of those one beats), but loses points for, well, losing (the amount of points one loses depends upon the ranks of those one loses to).

I'm beginning to like the idea of limited regenerative health that was mentioned earlier just because I think it would be interesting, but I think that health packs should restore a person's health to its full capacity.
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