I Hope the Sprint Button Replaces the Jump Button.

#61AlkafrazinPosted 6/13/2010 9:55:12 PM
You said it again AGAIN! Moreover, what you're now saying you said, you never said; at least not in the lines I quoted you and myself on.

You're just misreading, or you're putting words in my mouth and trolling.

OK... Let's suppose you never said it, and I was just putting words in your mouth. Do you think that lack of the ability to jump limited map design for Goldeneye? Or at the very least that Goldeneye maps were flat to begin with, but we just never realized it because there was no jumping? Was I wrong in thinking you at least thought either of those hard enough. Was I wrong to assume that that's what you think?

I'm well aware of that possibility, but if you look at earlier goldeneye maps, there are actually signs that jumping was to be included, but wasn't due to a lack of buttons, in order to make the gameplay experience more enjoyable over all. Just look at early goldeneye maps. Lots of railings you could have jumped over, lots of things you could have jumped on. They were still fairly bland, but the earlier stages in the campaign, and the maps based on those were more complex and up to the modern standard than the later ones.
Have you ever thought that if they had included jumping, the less complicated maps would have been more complicated, and lent themselves to it more?
Also, thank you for finally admitting the lack of depth in the maps, in the literal term. Yes, they are flat.

I'm saying Goldeneye is proof that action FPS games can work fine in spite of a lack of manual jumping,

So is doom. The problem is, these are ancient games. Timesplitters would be a better example, and even then, that it works doesn't mean we should use it. We have enough buttons for jumping, and it's not going to add anything to the experience to remove it.

and you're saying that Goldeneye is a bad example because it's an overrated game

I never said this. I just said that the maps were not deep or complex and were, in fact, quite flat and bland. The games had a million and one other reasons to be amazing, up to and including being the first influential console first person shooters, having featuresets that were generations ahead of their time.

that needed jumping and better multiplayer map design (perhaps among other things that are sub-part to PC FPS games).

It didn't need it. The game didn't have it and it did plenty well. But listing it as a reason to remove jumping is simply dumb, as the game did not gain anything from the lack thereof, and more signs point to it having lost something to that choice.

For your point to be true, Goldeneye would need to really suck ass as a game, whereas for my point to be true, Goldeneye has simply had to have work "just fine" as I've been claiming.

Except that you're completely putting words in my mouth in a sad attempt at winning arguments on the internet.
You're lobbying for the removal. You need points for why it's a bad feature. I'm simply saying that Goldeneye and Perfect Dark are not perfect amazing flawless games that everything should emulate to a Q.
Are you that desperate? Or are you just trolling?
#62elheber(Topic Creator)Posted 6/13/2010 11:13:58 PM
Well I still can't believe you're claiming you never said that Goldeneye's supposed flat maps is attributable to the game's lack of jumping. You said it thrice (two of them blatantly) and I quoted you on them. Even if I were reading between the lines, they're still the points you were getting across.

What I did wrongly attribute to you was claiming you thought Goldeneye was overrated and sub-par to PC FPS games of the same era. But I believe you did the same when you claimed I admitted Goldeneye maps were flat.

So I take it you at least think Goldeneye did just fine without jumping, even though it could have been better with. That's fine enough since that was what I was trying to get across with the whole Goldeneye argument. The reason that's fine enough is because I'm not advocating the complete removal of jumping; just the removal of manual jumping for the sake of bunny-hopping.

You're right: If I'm lobbying to remove manual jumping I have to make an argument to why manual jumping is a bad thing, or at the very least offer reasons why an alternative would be better. To be clear, the entire argument I was making about Goldeneye being "just fine" without jumping wasn't a reason to remove jumping from Con2, but simply a counter-argument to those who said removing jumping in an action FPS would ruin the gameplay. That's it.
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"A closet intellectual, he acts dumb to impress women."
I type random stuff in this line if I have something extra to say.
#63AlkafrazinPosted 6/14/2010 12:41:28 AM
Well I still can't believe you're claiming you never said that Goldeneye's supposed flat maps is attributable to the game's lack of jumping. You said it thrice (two of them blatantly) and I quoted you on them. Even if I were reading between the lines, they're still the points you were getting across.

No, they weren't. I never onece implied that goldeneye and perfect dark had flat maps JUST because of a lack of jumps. It's not like every map in them was flat, either. There's the facility stage, with the bathrooms and vents; not flat at all. Not deep by any measure, but not really flat. Same with that one map in Perfect Dark with the pipes. Even though each floor was flat on it's own, there were a lot of ways to get down from the higher floors. Again, not deep, not complex, and no pinacle of design, but not flat and bland like most of the maps in those games. I was only saying that they're poor examples of why an FPS shouldn't have jumps.

What I did wrongly attribute to you was claiming you thought Goldeneye was overrated and sub-par to PC FPS games of the same era. But I believe you did the same when you claimed I admitted Goldeneye maps were flat.

You outright stated they were.
Or at the very least that Goldeneye maps were flat to begin with, but we just never realized it because there was no jumping?
No beating around the bush. You said it.

So I take it you at least think Goldeneye did just fine without jumping, even though it could have been better with. That's fine enough since that was what I was trying to get across with the whole Goldeneye argument. The reason that's fine enough is because I'm not advocating the complete removal of jumping; just the removal of manual jumping for the sake of bunny-hopping.

Which is based on a poor understanding of the genre. Auto-jumping will rape the depth right out of a good map design, and without it, given how slow the game was already paced, it's basically reduced to another Halo of "whoever sees who first wins, provided they have the patience to keep holding/hammering that fire key". I had enough of that after a online matches with the first game. It's a terrible design choice to make a deathmatch shooter both slow and easy. There will be nothing to compete in.
The fact that there was lock-on in multiplayer didn't help this case at all. You might as well put in a "win the game" button. Bunny hopping and shot leading was the closest thing to depth the original had.

You're right: If I'm lobbying to remove manual jumping I have to make an argument to why manual jumping is a bad thing, or at the very least offer reasons why an alternative would be better. To be clear, the entire argument I was making about Goldeneye being "just fine" without jumping wasn't a reason to remove jumping from Con2, but simply a counter-argument to those who said removing jumping in an action FPS would ruin the gameplay. That's it.

Which it would. Granted, it's not a "this game goes from the best game ever to complete ****" scenario, but it hurts the game a lot, especially in this day and age. Even more by the fact that The Conduit has competent controls and hitscan weapons. It's not going to ruin it beyond repair, but in spite of my misplaced hope that this game will be the best thing ever, I don't have much real faith in the mapping abilities of the team so far, as nothing in The Conduit was impressive in that respect, and most of the mechanics were basically ripped out of Halo when they should have taken queues from faster, harder games to compensate by the precision the Wiimote controls can deliver.
#64elheber(Topic Creator)Posted 6/14/2010 3:57:51 PM
Riiight:

elheber - OK... Let's suppose you never said it, and I was just putting words in your mouth. Do you think that lack of the ability to jump limited map design for Goldeneye? Or at the very least that Goldeneye maps were flat to begin with, but we just never realized it because there was no jumping? Was I wrong in thinking you at least thought either of those hard enough. Was I wrong to assume that that's what you think?

Auto-jumping will NOT rape the depth right out of a good map design. The design stays the same, the paths are all open and available, and the gameplay stays the same except you aren't able to jump for the sake of jumping. Halo is Halo because of hundreds of details, not because you can't jump in it... uh, wait... I think you used a bad example of how limiting jumping rapes a game's depth. You're putting too much weight on jumping. It isn't the reason TCon was good, and it isn't the reason good players beat bad players. It was just a small sliver of gameplay. Otherwise I would lose all my matches, because I don't bunny-hop. Yet I don't. Not close.

I see bunny-hopping as a distraction that takes the gameplay focus away from precision shooting and places it on a requirment for lock-on. I see it as an easy way of just avoiding headshots. Not that it's cheap, but that does pretty much nothing but that. I see manual jumping unnecessary because rockets and explosions don't send you flying. I would rocket-surf all day and drop this thread if explosions did send you soaring. I would even drop this thread if bunny-hopping allowed you to get a speed boost if you were skilled enough with the analog and pointer. But none of that's true, and jumping becomes a distraction from better forms of frantic gameplay.

I see it similar to how I see crouch toggle as harmful to Conduit's gameplay.
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"A closet intellectual, he acts dumb to impress women."
I type random stuff in this line if I have something extra to say.
#65AlkafrazinPosted 6/14/2010 4:15:57 PM
Auto-jumping will NOT rape the depth right out of a good map design. The design stays the same, the paths are all open and available,

This is where you are wrong. If you have an auto-jump feature, it will either jump or it will not jump. This removes paths that alternate based on if you jump, how you jump, and where you jump, up to and inlcuding making it so that there are no "hard to reach" places that require tricky jumping as the game now does that for you.

and the gameplay stays the same except you aren't able to jump for the sake of jumping.

Except it doesn't in any way, shape, or form.

Halo is Halo because of hundreds of details, not because you can't jump in it... uh, wait... I think you used a bad example of how limiting jumping rapes a game's depth.

Halo was an example of a game where it's too easy to hit your mark because the game is slow, and the hitboxes are huge.

You're putting too much weight on jumping. It isn't the reason TCon was good, and it isn't the reason good players beat bad players. It was just a small sliver of gameplay. Otherwise I would lose all my matches, because I don't bunny-hop. Yet I don't. Not close.

Jumping was highly underused in The Conduit as an actual gameplay mechanic, especially in multiplayer.

I see bunny-hopping as a distraction that takes the gameplay focus away from precision shooting and places it on a requirment for lock-on.

If you need lockon to hit someone who is jumping/someone while jumping, the problem is not the game, the problem is you. You clearly have very little experience with actual competitive FPS.

I see it as an easy way of just avoiding headshots. Not that it's cheap, but that does pretty much nothing but that.

You see wrong. Plain and simple.

I see manual jumping unnecessary because rockets and explosions don't send you flying. I would rocket-surf all day and drop this thread if explosions did send you soaring.

So rocketjumping is all you can do with jumps?
Seriously.

I would even drop this thread if bunny-hopping allowed you to get a speed boost if you were skilled enough with the analog and pointer. But none of that's true, and jumping becomes a distraction from better forms of frantic gameplay.

The speed-boost would be nice, but completely out of place. We have sprinting now, too, making it entirely irrelevant.

I see it similar to how I see crouch toggle as harmful to Conduit's gameplay.

Which it wasn't.
#66elheber(Topic Creator)Posted 6/14/2010 4:49:57 PM
Alright, I'm done arguing with you. I was able to endure the whole split the post up and refute it bit by bit thing you have going on up until that last post. That was just overkill. Then you say I clearly have little experience with competitive FPS games, and that one just took the cake. Seriously, if there was a book listing the 100 most common internet argument practices, you've used the top 10 in this thread alone.

Come back when you want to have a civilized discussion.
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"A closet intellectual, he acts dumb to impress women."
I type random stuff in this line if I have something extra to say.
#67AlkafrazinPosted 6/14/2010 4:57:44 PM
This coming from someone sticking words in my mouth? This hasn't been "civil" since you showed up.