All objective modes need a re-spawn delay

#11AlkafrazinPosted 6/14/2010 8:07:43 PM
Haha. Right. >_>

Any competitive player I've played with understands the need to have a re-spawn delay in an objective game. I respect the fact that you do not like waiting to re-spawn, but to attempt to tell me that you can give the same balance to an objective game that a re-spawn delay does by moving the spawns is just foolish.


If you honestly think this, you haven't been gaming very long.

Being able to spawn instantly makes your life worthless. It strips the game of any sort of tactical attack when the instant you kill someone, they are already on their way back to kill you. Whether you are trying to capture an ASE, prevent that, plant a "bomb," or whatever, there should be a consequence for you dying.

A respawn delay doesn't add consequence or meaning. It just adds annoyance.

There needs to be a balance between your want to take an objective, and your need to stay alive.

The only case where this is true is for "you only live onece" gametypes. Otherwise, you should be doing everything you can to put the pressure on the other team, "delay" or no, to keep them on the defensive. Basic team tactics.
#12UltimateFlame13Posted 6/14/2010 9:21:31 PM
One thing I don't like about instant respawn in games like ctf is situations where I kill a guy, grab the flag, turn around a corner, and run into that same guy again. What did he really lose from me killing him? Nothing other than the inconvenience of reappearing in a nearby room. That's really the only time when I think about a respawn delay. It really depends on where they respawn though so it's not always that bad. It's also not as easy to notice when there's a lot of people because you'll usually always have some kind of pressure if the defenders are good. I pretty much agree with what Blaeu is saying though. If nothing else there should at least be an option for a delay.
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#13SupahShnipaPosted 6/14/2010 10:34:17 PM
"A respawn delay doesn't add consequence or meaning. It just adds annoyance."
No, what it does is force you to think. You can't just say "I'll just insta-respawn so it doesn't matter". Look at GB Sabo in COD4/MWR, you actually have to worry about surviving. If your team is dead they have a few seconds to plant and gain an advantage.

Also, if your getting annoyed at waiting for 10 seconds, you must have issues.
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#14CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 6/14/2010 10:52:16 PM
I wish they could implement the spawn mechanics of geist...
I swear they were near perfect.

In geist you instantly spawn, but as a ghost. You couldn't fight or be killed, but what you COULD do is move around the map and look for a host.

In effect, its like there is Always a significant re-spawn delay. anywhere from like 5 to 15 seconds, depending on if the person is willing to take the first host they find, or look for a better one.
But it also means that the player is in control of when, and where they spawn, within the limitations of the time they have as a ghost.

And lastly, you're still playing in a natural feeling way. The pace of the game doesn't crash to a sudden halt, causing you to loose your concentration or motivation. You're not waiting for a timer to count down, you are still playing.


Also, I have to disagree with Blaeu in that removing spawn delay just makes your life worthless, or that it is needed to create balance. If you have a formula that is designed to work with delay, but doesn't have it. Then yes it would probably end up making killing a person seem kinda pointless.

But there are other things that can be lost other than time. An obvious one is Location.
A map like the pentagon probably does not need delay, because the map is so large, location becomes a lot more valuable. The only thing that would need to be changed there is spreading out the spawn points a bit more so that when you kill someone in the base they aren't always going to appearing right next to you.
Other things that you can lose when you die are things like guns, and ammo, or even health.
Metroid Prime Hunters had you going after all of the above, because of this hunters didn't need a spawn delay longer than the 2-3 seconds, including the death animation, which makes up almost half of that time.

So, Need spawn delay? No.
Conduit need spawn delay? debatable, probably yes.

Also, this was a major problem in Tcon actually... Spawning with grenades.
Dying was probably the easiest way to re-stock your grenades. That is probably why they became synonymous with noobs, and also the fact that you could re-stock them all, all at once, at a location that is usually on the way OUT of the bases.
Not only are they making so that players DO NOT have to spend any time to get a few grenades when they spawn, it also means they have to spend almost No additional time filling up entirely.
#15Blaeu(Topic Creator)Posted 6/14/2010 11:16:05 PM
I agree that a delay is not the only option, but I have yet to see a better option.

For example, location. If I kill you while I push to take the ASE in Pentagon, I don't want to have to watch out for you to spawn behind me. You would still be able to throw your life away with an attempt to stop me because if you fail, you spawn between me and the capture point. That is not enough of a "penalty" to prevent that.

Now, if the new spawn point was a five second run to the ASE he is supposed to defend, while not being in the path between his ASE and mine, I would be okay with that.

Again, I should kill someone, take the ASE, start running back to score, and have to kill the same guy because he is in FRONT of me. He should have to catch up, I mean, he did die.

If you look at how MLG does MW2 CTF, there is a 7.5 second re-spawn delay. If you die, you cost your team heavily. Also, since you have to take the flag and run it all the way back, it makes a push into a heavily defensive area possible. I know Con2 will have different mechanics, and I'm not saying it should have a 7.5 second delay, but there is a reason competitive CTF has a delay on many games.

If HVS has another solution that will allow objective games to be balanced, I'm all for it. However, I see there being a problem with the modes as is, and this is my solution to resolve said problem.

At the very, very least. Please, please PLEASE allow me to add a re-spawn delay in a private match. At least then we can have competitive tourneys.
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#16incognito3Posted 6/14/2010 11:22:07 PM
i was saying the same thing in less detail to aile the other day but he didnt think it was neccesary. -_-
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#17CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 6/15/2010 12:04:16 AM
Well, I actually think The pentagon isn't the best example because a lot of it is just how badly its laid out.
There is one way out, and in order to get out you have to walk through areas vulnerable to nearly every spawn point.

Even with the delay that is in TCon, getting out of there is a problem because people are going to be spawning in your escape route no matter what.
Even if YOU aren't killing people, they are going to be dying, and spawning all the time.
so the pentagon is already a nearly impossible situation to begin with.

The way I had to play pentagon was... To sneak in.
If you kill them, they know you're in the base, and they will be heading right back for you.
So the best option is not to kill them.
And then because I knew their location beforehand, I still have an advantage when I grab the ASE, and head out.


So, the best solution here isn't going to be delay, but better design. in fact, delay will hardly be able to accomplish anything other than annoying people untill the design is improved, then decay will be allowed to work.
#18AlkafrazinPosted 6/15/2010 2:06:47 AM
One thing I don't like about instant respawn in games like ctf is situations where I kill a guy, grab the flag, turn around a corner, and run into that same guy again. What did he really lose from me killing him?

He didn't get to kill you before you got to the flag, obviously.
In the immortal words of Mai, "keep fighting!"

If nothing else there should at least be an option for a delay.

This would be fine, but I can't see it ending that way.

No, what it does is force you to think. You can't just say "I'll just insta-respawn so it doesn't matter". Look at GB Sabo in COD4/MWR, you actually have to worry about surviving. If your team is dead they have a few seconds to plant and gain an advantage.

I've played CoD4 plenty. That isn't how it winds up except in MWR where there's so much lag that it's basically cheating to be the host.

Also, if your getting annoyed at waiting for 10 seconds, you must have issues.

Or maybe I want to actually play the game instead of waiting 10 seconds to respawn every 3-28 seconds.