Cancles.

#1CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 6/25/2010 12:21:55 AM
Now that the board is in the top 10 again...
I think it would be a good time to make some topics to keep it afloat. see if we can't get it higher.
I've got a bunch of new Ideas and thoughts I'd like to share, and I'll be doing so over the next few days.

Today I'd like to bring up something that was in Tcon that I felt brought a whole lot into the game, even though it did also take a lot away from it.
Cancels.

A cancel is an action that ends an animation, or attack cooldown early.
a lot of different games have them. The ones in Tcon were all exploits, and broken.

Despite the fact they they were not supposed to be there, they were.
And personally, I don't think the fact that they were a mistake is a valid reason to remove them.
IMO that is one of the Biggest mistakes developers are making today. taking stuff out for no other reason then its not supposed to be there, or taking extensive measures to stop players from going where they arn't supposed to go. ( sequence breaking, etc )


Has HVS looked into the possibility of replacing the cancels we saw and experienced in Tcon with legitimate techs in con2?

I really hope they consider it.
I know a lot of you likely REALLY don't like them. Because they were exploits, there were a lot of people exploited by them, and you can't really expect these people to be very open to the idea of them returning in con2.

Anyway, The reason I like cancels is because... I think its really fun to find them, and learn them.
But I also like the involvement.
You could press the trigger button to shoot the gun... OR you could press like FOUR buttons in sequence, and if you get the timing right you are rewarded by being able to do something faster!!
ZOMQ! That's like So intense I think my head is about to explode!

Not only are you as a player doing more, there is also Less lag so it actually results in sped up gameplay, which is even funner!
And the fact that its difficult ( somewhat ) makes it satisfying to pull off.

I think if its done in a way that is balanced to where cancels and techs take a backseat to the other more basic skills of a shooter in determining the outcome, the result could actually be something really fun.

And, I also really like the way the grenade and melee cancel work with jump, I think that could work really well as an element of canceling. In the case for melee and grenades, it really isn't detrimental to be in the air.
Imagine if, for instance, the sequence to pull off a shotgun cancel involved a jump. You could shoot early, but you'd also be in the air, and in less control, and it would actually make things a little more tricky. It wouldn't just be so simple as just shooting faster, it complicates your aiming, and brings it back to the fundamental aspect of the shooter.
And maybe jumping wouldn't be the best way to accomplish this, but it does demonstrate what is possible there.

Anyway, I'd like to hear what people think about including some sort of equivalent that is actually calculated, and also what peoples experiences were with it in Tcon.
Are there a lot of people out there who enjoyed them as much as I did? Does everyone hate it as much as they hate the smaw?
#2DarkZV2BetaPosted 6/25/2010 2:24:55 AM
Cancels would be lovely. I like seeing them in pretty much any competitive game, especially when they get more complicated.

But, there were cancels in the game that were supposed to be there. Namely Shotgun > Melee. I'm 100% certain that was intentional. But I think anything that overcomplicates it is going too far for a game like this. Stick to action > action, maybe with some timing restriction. Button codes would be dumb.
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#3sunfalcon9Posted 6/25/2010 3:58:12 AM
Too advanced o.o
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#4CHAINMAILLEKID(Topic Creator)Posted 6/25/2010 9:16:21 AM
I think anything that overcomplicates it is going too far for a game like this. Stick to action > action, maybe with some timing restriction. Button codes would be dumb.

I definitely agree to that.
L-canceling was a staple of melee, and it only involved pressing your shoulder button at the right time when you land. I don't see any reason why it needs to be more complicated than that.
#5MrFigsworthPosted 6/25/2010 10:49:20 AM
I'm too big of a fan of canceling personally. Granted I abused the mess out of it once I figured it out, but as for going where you aren't supposed to? That was game-breaking, out of map glitches should be gotten rid of as they really messed up the game. Thankfully with the Phase Riffle, all you people who think hiding outside the map will save you, we got a weapon that can get after you now...hopefully...unless HVS makes it so it can't penetrate through the arena wall. I abused the shotgun cancel for days, until it just became natural to do it. I loved the cancels that I figured out, including the double jump. However despite me love and abuse of them, I hope they don't come back in any form what so ever. That's my take and I stick to it. If cancels are kept, lock-on should be kept, because cancels give a really large advantage for those that know them. Not everyone can do them so its really kind of unfair to the less experienced players. What do we want, a large community of gamers to play with, or a small community of elites? I say big community because then more people to play with happen to be around. Yep, that's me.
#6DarkZV2BetaPosted 6/25/2010 10:54:05 AM
But if we have separate gametypes for competitive and casual players, we keep both communities. So there would be little harm in allowing basic cancels.
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#7elheberPosted 6/25/2010 2:41:15 PM
L-canceling was NOT just as simple as pressing shield just before landing. I mean, it was, but much more importantly L-canceling was the basis of very advanced ATs (yes, I know I said advanced twice there), such as SHFFLing and wavedashing which all required copious amounts of button presses, accurate timing, and skill.

Frankly, in TCon, it didn't get much tougher than the Auto Pump Cancel I discovered... but that's just the way I like 'em.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdvl__lr6U . . . <-Auto Pump Cancel

Cancels and cancel loops are one of the things that make having skill be so much fun.
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#8CHAINMAILLEKID(Topic Creator)Posted 6/25/2010 7:20:53 PM
Hahaha!
That's crazy, I hadn't seen that one before.

I don't think HVS needs to make any effort at all to make anything more than very basic cancels, mostly because people will likely find more complicated ones.

And L-canceling really wasn't any more than that... It was just used in strings.
SHFFL wasn't really even a Tech. When you SHFFL you arn't creating anything different than doing all the parts individually.
Wavedashing is a tech, because it creates additional momentum not seen in the individual parts.
#9SupahShnipaPosted 6/25/2010 8:13:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVovOmVkTYE
^This

This added a new level to competitive gaming in Halo 2. I'd like to see a similar sort of thing in Conduit 2.
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#10The_ShaderPosted 6/26/2010 8:37:24 AM
What you're talking about my friend is a glitch. i do like 'competitive controls' where they can determine pro from noob, but i dont like it when it causes something to happen, that shouldn't happen. Fighting games like Marvel vs. Capcom with its QCP (quick-command-post) is awesome. but stuff like The Conduit's shotgun-cancel is just annoying. You'd be turning an awesome pump action shotgun into the AA-12!!! HELL NO!!!

"if it wasn't built into the game intentionally by the developer, its a glitch."

Tony came by for one of these Topics and confirmed this to be true.

While we are on the subject, SSBM's wavedashing is a glitch. No matter what fans, pros, noobs, say.... that crazy stuff in SSBM was NOT purposely built in by the game developers.
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