So what lesson do you believe hvs has learned from the whole Tcon vs Con2 thing?

#51B05S_BrennanPosted 11/12/2012 9:07:55 PM
B05S_Brennan posted...
The same thing is happening with Halo 4.

Now that you can kill a Ghost driver without a Rocket Launcher/Plasma Pistol:

"Vehicles are useless in this game!"

^No, they just take skill now.

"DMR is needs a nerf because I can't kill a DMR user with my BR at long range"

^Move to mid-range

Now that you can start with a Boltshot (pistol-shotgun) that can OHKO people only at close range:

"Boltshot is OP because it has OHKO potential and OHKO potential = power weapon and power weapon = something you shouldn't be able to start with"

^Stop trying to melee me to death, and you won't get OHKO'd.

"Ordinance drops suck and are unbalanced".

^Yet less people are running around with power weapons in Halo 4.

Point: Some fanbases just don't like change, whether it's good or not.


Did anyone but Hawke read this? This is basically how I feel the TCon fanbase reacted to C2.
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#52CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 11/12/2012 9:23:05 PM(edited)
Hawke0 posted...
CHAINMAILLEKID posted...
Hawke0 posted...
Still not imbalanced. Also, Double Armor.
the SMAW is imbalanced while not OP. Which is why I wanted it turned into the Shriekers secondary fire but faster, less accurate, smaller clip, and more power.


It in imbalanced though...
Very easily OP

Full PR perks are arguably broken, thus why tuning or spec are frequently banned from competitive play.


No. The PR has horrible hip fire, the scope is so zoomed in it's useless at close range and painful at medium range, has little ammunition, is worthless against double armor, requires you to aim well, and every time you shoot you're taken out of the scope. Not to mention if you have a light weapon then you can easily dodge it's shots. You need Specialization to get any use out of it, just like DE for a Strike Rifle.

Without perks it's one of the worst guns in the game, with Spec. it's a good long range weapon, and with all the upgrades stacked it's a powerful long range weapon, but that's offset by stealth, double armor, and it's worthlessness at close range.

It reminds me of what Brennan said about the one pistol in Halo 4 that can OHK at close range, "because OHK potential=OP".


Being worthless without perks doesn't mean a thing when thats not how people use it.

Besides, it isn't worthless w/o perks.
Its perfectly capable and very deadly, and even reliable. You just have to line up a headshot, like people have been doing with snipers since long before now.

Its also a quite decent gun at CC. You'll have a hard time getting more than a neutral spread, but you can defend yourself and pressure people against approaching you.
And if somebody catches you unawares, well... You're far less screwed than if somebody catches you with the SR.
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#53CynralKynathelPosted 11/12/2012 9:23:04 PM
Hawke0 posted...
CynralKynathel posted...
Hawke0 posted...
CHAINMAILLEKID posted...
Hawke0 posted...
Still not imbalanced. Also, Double Armor.
the SMAW is imbalanced while not OP. Which is why I wanted it turned into the Shriekers secondary fire but faster, less accurate, smaller clip, and more power.


It in imbalanced though...
Very easily OP

Full PR perks are arguably broken, thus why tuning or spec are frequently banned from competitive play.


No. The PR has horrible hip fire, the scope is so zoomed in it's useless at close range and painful at medium range, has little ammunition, is worthless against double armor, requires you to aim well, and every time you shoot you're taken out of the scope. Not to mention if you have a light weapon then you can easily dodge it's shots. You need Specialization to get any use out of it, just like DE for a Strike Rifle.

Without perks it's one of the worst guns in the game, with Spec. it's a good long range weapon, and with all the upgrades stacked it's a powerful long range weapon, but that's offset by stealth, double armor, and it's worthlessness at close range.

It reminds me of what Brennan said about the one pistol in Halo 4 that can OHK at close range, "because OHK potential=OP".


First, I'm calling the fully stacked upgrade PR imbalanced, not the PR by itself. Second, how people have you seen use Double armor or stealth? Not many I'll bet. Because those perks are not that useful. Like I said before, nobody likes wasting 3 perks for something that should be two. And nobody realizes how much they rely on radar, so they think stealth is useless as well. Third, who runs around with a your secondary on when you have no use for it? Nobody, because you should be safe behind a wall if there is no warning. Everybody who is behind a wall never runs or hops around or gets to dodge imaginary bullets. Also, I've made plenty of medium range shots with the scope, its not that hard. This is coming from someone who has used the PR in both sides of the perk hallway. I've never seen anyone run around while they were behind a wall, unless they were in a rush. Even then they were in a straight line.


Saying the PR is OP because people don't know how to counter it when it's as easy as it is like saying the Deatomizer is OP because it can OHK if they don't walk out of the way. I was talking to Chain, which explains the whole perkless bit.


I'm not calling it OP though. I'm calling it imbalanced.
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#54donkeypunch1116(Topic Creator)Posted 11/12/2012 9:46:58 PM
You guys are right, maybe we should drop it. It's funny, this kinda reminds me of that time when tcon had a bigger fan base, more sales, and better reviews. Good times



:P
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#55B05S_BrennanPosted 11/12/2012 9:49:45 PM
donkeypunch1116 posted...
You guys are right, maybe we should drop it. It's funny, this kinda reminds me of that time when tcon had a bigger fan base, more sales, and better reviews. Good times



:P


I thought C2 was generally considered an improvement by reviewers.
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#56Hawke0Posted 11/12/2012 11:11:40 PM
It was generally seen as an improvement, but since there were other shooters available and actual competition, C2 got marked down. It isn't unusual to see someone who gave TCon a 7/10 say C2 was better then give it a 5/10 because Goldeneye and CoD appeal more to the casual shooter fans that dominate the genre today, so there is a higher standard, as opposed to the standard being in the toilet prior to TCons release.

So Punch's "better reviews" argument is pretty worthless, as if TCon were released now it would be utterly destroyed by reviewers. Aside from Sean Colleli, he's a pretty cool guy.

So is sales, TCon was hyped up and many bought it on hype alone, and plenty of people wrote off C2 because they didn't like TCon. You could see plenty of hate on anything Conduit related before C2's release. Also, the existence of other shooters that didn't suck took away from C2's sales. TCon had no such problem.

Sorry Punch, your argument is invalid.
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#57donkeypunch1116(Topic Creator)Posted 11/12/2012 11:33:35 PM
Hawke0 posted...
It was generally seen as an improvement, but since there were other shooters available and actual competition, C2 got marked down. It isn't unusual to see someone who gave TCon a 7/10 say C2 was better then give it a 5/10 because Goldeneye and CoD appeal more to the casual shooter fans that dominate the genre today, so there is a higher standard, as opposed to the standard being in the toilet prior to TCons release.

So Punch's "better reviews" argument is pretty worthless, as if TCon were released now it would be utterly destroyed by reviewers. Aside from Sean Colleli, he's a pretty cool guy.

So is sales, TCon was hyped up and many bought it on hype alone, and plenty of people wrote off C2 because they didn't like TCon. You could see plenty of hate on anything Conduit related before C2's release. Also, the existence of other shooters that didn't suck took away from C2's sales. TCon had no such problem.

Sorry Punch, your argument is invalid.


Oh you guys...
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#58Hawke0Posted 11/12/2012 11:34:43 PM
I'll take that as admission of defeat.
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#59donkeypunch1116(Topic Creator)Posted 11/13/2012 12:25:31 PM
Hawke0 posted...
I'll take that as admission of defeat.


Oh you :P

If only
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#60old_man_mossyPosted 11/13/2012 12:34:26 PM
Fun Fact....and while its strictly my opinion that these games are good....TCON launched six months past wii world at war and six months before Modern Warfare Reflex, so saying there werent other good shooters is hearsay on your part, Hawkeo.

C2 mimiced that launch between CoD's coming 6 months after Blops (and GE) and 6months before MW3 (I think)

I'd even argue TCON changed formula due to feedback from wii fans who played those other shooters, and were involved in TCONs forums asking for perks, run buttons, a sniper rifle etc.

I think what hurt C2 sales the most was the change in formula. It, to an extent, lost what made it unique and alienated the fanbase that didnt move on and enjoyed competitive, arena like shooters/ gaming (such as the GameBattles site where it was represented.)

Combine Segas lack of advertisement and Nin's less than stellar support for C2 (vs. TCON) with 2 'oppositional' market demographics- Those who were let down by TCON being glitchy, hacked, and not like all the 'newer' shooters- and thus could care less about it; and those that loved TCON,stuck by it, and hated the changes...who also more than made up for Segas lack of advertisement with constant online ridicule of the game, and its no wonder it flopped hard.

Rare is the camp that likes both games. I think we as a forum make up that demographic well :)
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