Since clans sem to be booming, we need to come up with an official banlist.

#51Hawke0(Topic Creator)Posted 7/15/2013 12:14:55 PM
Symphonia46 posted...
Hawke0 posted...
^This
Ventus' argument is more against bans in general than the SMAW and Hive Cannon.


I gave reasons to why SMAW is banned. And it's the only thing that should be banned at all.


What about Explosive Focus and the Hive Cannon? You can suicide with the HC just as effectively and its huge clip makes aiming even less necessary. Explosive Focus increases explosive radius, cripples the HVS45, Warp Pistol, and Shrieker, and weakens the SPAS and TPC - all this when there's no drawback. The only reason that Explosive Focus is acceptable at all is because it counters the SMAW and Hive Cannon, and if you ban those then it needs to be banned to - and the HC is guilty of several of the same reasons for banning that you gave for the SMAW.
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#52CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 7/15/2013 12:17:00 PM
Symphonia46 posted...
Hawke0 posted...
^This
Ventus' argument is more against bans in general than the SMAW and Hive Cannon.


I gave reasons to why SMAW is banned. And it's the only thing that should be banned at all.


What about EF?
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#53CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 7/15/2013 12:20:58 PM
Hawke0 posted...
Symphonia46 posted...
Hawke0 posted...
^This
Ventus' argument is more against bans in general than the SMAW and Hive Cannon.


I gave reasons to why SMAW is banned. And it's the only thing that should be banned at all.


What about Explosive Focus and the Hive Cannon? You can suicide with the HC just as effectively and its huge clip makes aiming even less necessary. Explosive Focus increases explosive radius, cripples the HVS45, Warp Pistol, and Shrieker, and weakens the SPAS and TPC - all this when there's no drawback. The only reason that Explosive Focus is acceptable at all is because it counters the SMAW and Hive Cannon, and if you ban those then it needs to be banned to - and the HC is guilty of several of the same reasons for banning that you gave for the SMAW.


The other half of that argument is, the weapons remaining that can benefit by EF, with the exception of the frag, also recieve other types of damage. So they can still be buffed with either Energy focus or Ballistic.
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#54Symphonia46Posted 7/15/2013 12:39:54 PM(edited)
Hawke0 posted...
Symphonia46 posted...
Hawke0 posted...
^This
Ventus' argument is more against bans in general than the SMAW and Hive Cannon.


I gave reasons to why SMAW is banned. And it's the only thing that should be banned at all.


What about Explosive Focus and the Hive Cannon? You can suicide with the HC just as effectively and its huge clip makes aiming even less necessary. Explosive Focus increases explosive radius, cripples the HVS45, Warp Pistol, and Shrieker, and weakens the SPAS and TPC - all this when there's no drawback. The only reason that Explosive Focus is acceptable at all is because it counters the SMAW and Hive Cannon, and if you ban those then it needs to be banned to - and the HC is guilty of several of the same reasons for banning that you gave for the SMAW.


As much as everyone should know, Explosives Focus only should cripple explosive weapons and increase blast radius, that's its main purpose. It also countering SPAS and HVS45 is not understandable, I know. But HVS45 is not a reliable gun so it already wasn't good from the get-go. The SPAS however, it's pretty much just having Heavy Armor without the speed deduction. SPAS is already a OHKO without damage perks and EF is really useful for that. I've killed many EF users with the SPAS + USP combo because I use the SPAS as a damage starter and the USP as a finisher. Using the SPAS without switching already i a bad chance because you still need a bunch of pellets to hit at once for a OHKO up close. EF shouldn't be banned just because of it reducing damage from more weapons than its main weapon category. Besides, I don't want a full lobby of SPAS runners in a clan war, it's stupid.

HC is a gun designed for spraying up close. Even so, it's accuracy isn't the best and you can kill faster with other loadouts than the HC. The whole HC bunny hopping thing? Makes the accuracy even worse and just staying around cover gives you a big advantage, charging straight at a HC user was never the best of ideas. Staying away from it where it's defective is best. There are tons of maps where it's mostly mid-range/long-range. If the HC was replace is an actual LMG with the HC's stats where you can actually ADS, I'd want it banned. Which also comes to another point, the secondary fire of the HC is terrible. If it was replaced with something even more useful, it'd more more annoying. You can't kamikaze as well with the HC, if you kill yourself, it's likely you won't receive a kill in the long run.

Just because you don't know how to play against it, doesn't mean it should be banned.
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#55Hawke0(Topic Creator)Posted 7/15/2013 1:04:19 PM
Symphonia46 posted...


As much as everyone should know, Explosives Focus only should cripple explosive weapons and increase blast radius, that's its main purpose. It also countering SPAS and HVS45 is not understandable, I know. But HVS45 is not a reliable gun so it already wasn't good from the get-go. The SPAS however, it's pretty much just having Heavy Armor without the speed deduction. SPAS is already a OHKO without damage perks and EF is really useful for that. I've killed many EF users with the SPAS + USP combo because I use the SPAS as a damage starter and the USP as a finisher. Using the SPAS without switching already i a bad chance because you still need a bunch of pellets to hit at once for a OHKO up close. EF shouldn't be banned just because of it reducing damage from more weapons than its main weapon category. Besides, I don't want a full lobby of SPAS runners in a clan war, it's stupid.

HC is a gun designed for spraying up close. Even so, it's accuracy isn't the best and you can kill faster with other loadouts than the HC. The whole HC bunny hopping thing? Makes the accuracy even worse and just staying around cover gives you a big advantage, charging straight at a HC user was never the best of ideas. Staying away from it where it's defective is best. There are tons of maps where it's mostly mid-range/long-range. If the HC was replace is an actual LMG with the HC's stats where you can actually ADS, I'd want it banned. Which also comes to another point, the secondary fire of the HC is terrible. If it was replaced with something even more useful, it'd more more annoying. You can't kamikaze as well with the HC, if you kill yourself, it's likely you won't receive a kill in the long run.

Just because you don't know how to play against it, doesn't mean it should be banned.


The HVS45 is a reliable weapon, you just need to be capable of getting headshots. Explosive Focus makes it require two headshots or 5 body shots to kill, and with that it becomes worthless. Explosive Focus shouldn't cripple the Shrieker and Warpy at all, explosives or not, they're low tier to balanced weapons at best.

It's funny how you're defending the Hive Cannon while saying the SPAS needs EF to counter, because the SPAS has worse range than the Hive Cannon. On top of that, it's impossible to miss at close range with the Hive Cannon. If you just bunny hop around and spray at close range, the explosive radius ensures that you'll damage your enemy while being able to avoid their shots. If they do hit you, you're doing damage to yourself so frequently you'll probably end up with a suicide. Most of what you say in defense of the Hive Cannon could be said of the SPAS, just because you don't know how to counter it doesn't mean that it should be greatly weakened by Explosive Focus.

Your defense of EF revolves around its use to counter the SPAS, when there's a balanced option for that: Heavy Armor. Or just stay out of close range, which is much easier to do against the SPAS than the Hive Cannon. Since you support banning the SMAW, the only thing that Exposive Focus exists to counter is the Hive Cannon; allowing Explosive Focus allows one noob weapon (the Hive Cannon), but cripples three balanced-low tier ones (HVS 45, Shrieker, Warpy) and greatly weakens two balanced ones (TPC and SMAW), as well as making Heavy Armor irrelevant unless you're going against snipers, all without any sort of drawback.
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#56Hawke0(Topic Creator)Posted 7/15/2013 1:24:41 PM
In short, here's the good things about Explosive Focus.
1. Counters the Hive Cannon.
That's it. If the SMAW is banned, that's the only positive thing about it. You can't count weakening the SPAS or TPC, that's what we have Heavy Armor for, and it's actually balanced because of speed reduction.
The bad things about it:
1. Cripples the Warp Pistol.
2. Cripples the Shrieker.
3. Makes the HVS45 unusable.
4. Weakens the TPC
5. Weakens the SPAS
6. Makes Heavy Armor less worth using.
7. By allowing the Hive Cannon, you move the Aegis Device from 'underpowered', to 'unusable'.

By banning the Hive Cannon and Explosive Focus, you make the number of viable weapons and perks increase by at least five. It's a no brainer, although the PR Spec vs. Tuning is much more open to debate.
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Occupation Bob and Endgame are probably the stupidest people on the FE:A board.
The One and Only True Mr.Ford
#57Symphonia46Posted 7/15/2013 1:35:08 PM
Hawke0 posted...
The HVS45 is a reliable weapon, you just need to be capable of getting headshots. Explosive Focus makes it require two headshots or 5 body shots to kill, and with that it becomes worthless.


So it's reliable because you need to be capable of aiming for the head? No, that's not reliable, check its stats as well. The HVS45 should be a primary because it needs a back up to make it effective. Just how many headshots do you (I'm talking to you Hawke) get by average using the HVS45? I'd like to know because I know people of this board who remember me using the HVS45 and getting a mass amount of headshots in pubs. In a clan war, more people are going to be skillful enough to the point where they're not just going to stand around letting you aim at their head.

Explosive Focus shouldn't cripple the Shrieker and Warpy at all, explosives or not, they're low tier to balanced weapons at best.


Because you see Shriekers and Warp Pistols on average in clan wars? You should not use those guns if you want to help your team in the first place.

It's funny how you're defending the Hive Cannon while saying the SPAS needs EF to counter, because the SPAS has worse range than the Hive Cannon. On top of that, it's impossible to miss at close range with the Hive Cannon. If you just bunny hop around and spray at close range, the explosive radius ensures that you'll damage your enemy while being able to avoid their shots. If they do hit you, you're doing damage to yourself so frequently you'll probably end up with a suicide. Most of what you say in defense of the Hive Cannon could be said of the SPAS, just because you don't know how to counter it doesn't mean that it should be greatly weakened by Explosive Focus.


I'm sorry, I didn't say anything about using the SPAS against the HC because I knew someone would just say they mostly would be using EF. I SAID stay away from the HC users to the point where the HC i defective Using the SPAS against HC users isn't smart because whenever I do, they're using EF. Use a different gun than the SPAS then if it is working then? I don't know, there are about -hmmm- how many other guns that could be just as more useful to take out a HC user? Oh right, them using EF. You're going to say "then you're limited to the SCAR and USP" right? No, on a LOT of occasions, TPCs are useful even if the enemy is using EF. TPCs are also good on rushers, which HC users are rushers. It is possible to stay out of distance from HCs, you can also pick them off with other guns. In fact, I hate TPCs more than HCs, because they kill faster (2 shots with Energy Focus as well), be used as traps, and can be used from pretty far away.

Your defense of EF revolves around its use to counter the SPAS, when there's a balanced option for that: Heavy Armor. Or just stay out of close range, which is much easier to do against the SPAS than the Hive Cannon.


I did say that I have killed a bunch of EF users with the SPAS + USP combo, did I? Read that again, please. Heavy Armor also works, because it works for all the other sets.

Since you support banning the SMAW, the only thing that Exposive Focus exists to counter is the Hive Cannon; allowing Explosive Focus allows one noob weapon (the Hive Cannon), but cripples three balanced-low tier ones (HVS 45, Shrieker, Warpy)


No, it exists to me to counter every explosives weapon because that's its point of 3, and to counter SPAS because it's advantage with the two ballistic upgrades. Also, Heavy Armor is more useful because it lessens all damage.
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#58VintageRonJohnPosted 7/15/2013 1:39:12 PM
Symphonia46 posted...
Oh yeah, you know how much SMAWers kill themselves while blasting you away? Well, your team doesn't get a point deduction from suicides and -of course- you'll get your rockets back open for another kamikaze. Explosive Focus? Well "greatly damage them for another to easily finish them off" and a kamikaze has no repercussions since you'll damage them and you won't give them a point because you suicided. You're too slow to get away? Blow yourself up, no point deduction after all.


The no point deduction can easily be changed for clan wars. Heck, if that's the only real reason to ban the SMAW, make suicides a two-point loss and let's call it a day.
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#59CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 7/15/2013 1:41:38 PM
EF not having a speed nerf is EXACTLY one of the reasons it needs to go.
It just contributes to the problem of Spas users sprinting around everywhere, because there's enough spas users running around w/o EF that spas users to a whole second layer of spas users w/EF, who run around targeting the first.
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#60Symphonia46Posted 7/15/2013 1:50:06 PM
Hawke0 posted...
In short, here's the good things about Explosive Focus.
1. Counters the Hive Cannon.
That's it. If the SMAW is banned, that's the only positive thing about it. You can't count weakening the SPAS or TPC, that's what we have Heavy Armor for, and it's actually balanced because of speed reduction.
The bad things about it:
1. Cripples the Warp Pistol.
2. Cripples the Shrieker.
3. Makes the HVS45 unusable.
4. Weakens the TPC
5. Weakens the SPAS
6. Makes Heavy Armor less worth using.
7. By allowing the Hive Cannon, you move the Aegis Device from 'underpowered', to 'unusable'.

By banning the Hive Cannon and Explosive Focus, you make the number of viable weapons and perks increase by at least five. It's a no brainer, although the PR Spec vs. Tuning is much more open to debate.


Because you definitely use Shreiker, Warpy, HVS45, and AEGIS Devices in clan wars. Low-tiered weapons are used because they are fun, but since you are in a clan with some members who want to want to win. You'd actually want to use fun weapons even though there are a bunch of other guns that make it easier to achieve that win? That's just completely silly, EXTREMELY silly. Why be in that clan if you're not going to try to win? You would try to use higher tier'd weapons to help your team out. And Heavy Armor lessens all types of damage.
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"Why do I always feel like it's the end of the world and I'm the last man standing?" -Phoenix Wright
http://i.imgur.com/9UUJ0.jpg