Thirteen things that would have changed Conduit 2

#31B05S_BrennanPosted 2/2/2014 9:13:40 AM
hc-valkiria posted...
B05S_Brennan posted...
_Signal posted...
9. Not Region Locked

This badly crippled the game.


I personally disagree. While not being able to play with our PAL friends can be frustrating, lag between North Americans and South Americans can get pretty bad, adding PAL players into the mix would send the lag through the roof, I believe.

Not trying to start an argument or anything, just thought I'd add my two cents.


I think that there should be two options for it: region locked and worldwide like in mariokart wii.


That's a good idea too, TCon was like that. But there's also the possibility that everyone would always go to worldwide, like they do on TCon.

However, if there's a C3 on Wii U, there should be no excuse to region lock the game.
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#32xXAISPXxPosted 2/2/2014 10:14:28 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#33xXAISPXxPosted 2/2/2014 10:16:48 AM
B05S_Brennan posted...
_Signal posted...
9. Not Region Locked

This badly crippled the game.

adding PAL players into the mix would send the lag through the roof


I would have to dispose of my router every game if that ever happened.
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#34_Signal(Topic Creator)Posted 2/10/2014 7:44:00 PM
I don't think that having the game not region locked would have automatically ruined it.

I think it was region locked for legal reasons having to do with Sega.

Sometimes I lag more with guys on the east coast or in Mexico than I lag with Andy or Ashura. I think it's more about your internet connection than an extra 2500 miles. It's less than 5000 miles from Kansas to Poland, which is only about twice the distance from the east coast of the United States to the west coast, and I'm sure that the signal will go through a lot more nodes crossing the US.

Theoretically an electronic signal traveling 5000 miles should do so in 0.026 seconds. That's a theoretical ping time of 52 ms. The distance isn't the bottleneck.

I just think it's wrong to assume that doubling the distance will automatically ruin the game. The signal traveling to the Hughes net geostationary satellite has to go 22,000 miles one way. That's 54,000 miles round trip. The Hughes net rep I spoke with said that they typically have ping times of about 900 ms, too much for FPS. That's traveling about 5 times as far as land line to Europe, and somewhat correlates to my theoretical 52 ms ping time. Somewhat.
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#35Katy_C2Posted 2/10/2014 8:11:38 PM
_Signal posted...
Kansas


I'm so sorry.
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#36like2napPosted 2/10/2014 9:35:32 PM
_Signal posted...
I don't think that having the game not region locked would have automatically ruined it.

I think it was region locked for legal reasons having to do with Sega.

Sometimes I lag more with guys on the east coast or in Mexico than I lag with Andy or Ashura. I think it's more about your internet connection than an extra 2500 miles. It's less than 5000 miles from Kansas to Poland, which is only about twice the distance from the east coast of the United States to the west coast, and I'm sure that the signal will go through a lot more nodes crossing the US.

Theoretically an electronic signal traveling 5000 miles should do so in 0.026 seconds. That's a theoretical ping time of 52 ms. The distance isn't the bottleneck.

I just think it's wrong to assume that doubling the distance will automatically ruin the game. The signal traveling to the Hughes net geostationary satellite has to go 22,000 miles one way. That's 54,000 miles round trip. The Hughes net rep I spoke with said that they typically have ping times of about 900 ms, too much for FPS. That's traveling about 5 times as far as land line to Europe, and somewhat correlates to my theoretical 52 ms ping time. Somewhat.


Theoretically isn't reality though (like you didn't know that or something). Even if you had a good ping to someone in Europe that doesn't mean they will have a good ping to you or to the host. I just did a ping test to italy on my work internet which is slightly better than mine. Ping was 119ms. Then factor in the delay from lag compensation algorithms, which can vary greatly between different games, and you get even more lag. I believe BLOPS 2 had a baseline delay of about 150ms at 0ms ping. So 119 plus the 150 would mean a delay in actions of 269ms. That's just the player to host delay. Player vs player situations are worse. Also a lot of people would have a much worse ping to Italy than I did in this test. Not all connections are the same.

Playing Ghosts against European players for me is noticeably laggy. Sometimes unplayable. Same with Black Ops 2. Other times it's not so bad. Also, did anyone confirm the type of "region lock" they are talking about? Sometimes region locked just means I can't buy a European copy of a game and play it on my Wii. It doesn't always mean that I can't play against European players. People freaked out that the Wii U was going to be region locked, but it just means I can't buy a UK copy of a game and play it on my Wii U. I have to buy an American copy.
#37like2napPosted 2/12/2014 12:56:18 AM
Those ping times I mentioned are just because of distance too and are pinging servers. Who knows how wonky someone has their home network setup. I watched a lag comp video about Ghosts. In the video the player was pinging someone in his city that he was connected to. The ping was 250ms to someone in the same city. Clearly something was wrong with that person's internet. Now throw on the 150ms delay to the host and you get 400ms. That's more than enough to win a gunfight in COD obviously, but also enough to win one in C2 if the player with the advantage is accurate. The high kill times in this game would help mask the problem, but the problem would still be there.

I should add that I don't know much about the lag compensation in C2. I only used the COD games as reference as people have done extensive testing on those. I can link some youtube videos if anyone is interested. A game like C2 would have similar problems. Could be better. Could be worse. I don't know. But ping by distance isn't bad. I can get 99ms to servers in the UK sometimes, but that doesn't mean my ping to a host will be that number. Plus the lag comp delays that I mentioned.

This is where dedicated servers come in. You get a nice, stable host if everything is working right. A host who is not playing. So there is no host advantage or chance of host rage quitting. That's where the benefits of dedicated servers ends though.
#38_Signal(Topic Creator)Posted 2/12/2014 8:23:19 AM
Yeah, I realize that theoretically is almost always very different than reality.

I'm sure there are many European players that I would lag with very badly, but I typically have a good connection with Andy, sometimes better than my connection with Brennan, and almost always better than my connection with XG4 (wherever he is) and to players in Mexico. I suppose in the dream world, there would be enough players for Matchmaking to sort good ping times from bad ping times, like Ghosts appears to do.

I assume that's what Matchmaking is trying to do when it initially searches for "Ideal" players, but who knows if that even works.

I'm with you though, more distance has to mean more lag.

AC4 has some silly lag compensation. Sometimes my character will really fly after someone a second or two after I've attacked them, LOL. But in that game, it's not game breaking.

For C2 on the Wii, Andy had to buy an NTSC Wii and an NTSC copy of C2. I have no idea about the WiiU, but I think that's the same situation.

Also, for "Katy," I don't live in Kansas or Poland. Those were just my examples.
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#39like2napPosted 2/13/2014 12:36:34 AM
_Signal posted...
Yeah, I realize that theoretically is almost always very different than reality.

I'm sure there are many European players that I would lag with very badly, but I typically have a good connection with Andy, sometimes better than my connection with Brennan, and almost always better than my connection with XG4 (wherever he is) and to players in Mexico. I suppose in the dream world, there would be enough players for Matchmaking to sort good ping times from bad ping times, like Ghosts appears to do.

I assume that's what Matchmaking is trying to do when it initially searches for "Ideal" players, but who knows if that even works.

I'm with you though, more distance has to mean more lag.

AC4 has some silly lag compensation. Sometimes my character will really fly after someone a second or two after I've attacked them, LOL. But in that game, it's not game breaking.

For C2 on the Wii, Andy had to buy an NTSC Wii and an NTSC copy of C2. I have no idea about the WiiU, but I think that's the same situation.

Also, for "Katy," I don't live in Kansas or Poland. Those were just my examples.


Wii U is fine in that I can play against European players. I just can't buy a European copy of the game.

Ghosts matchmaking is actually flawed. Their hit detection and netcode (if you want to call it that) with the lag comp (as in that baseline delay) are the best in the series since Modern Warfare 2. They got that right (could be better, but it works well enough). The matchmaking searches for least "hops" first. Like how many stops does a connection have to make before it gets to a player. THEN it searches for the lowest ping out of the ones it finds. That's why I can have European players connecting to me. Their ping may be terrible, but jumping across the ocean to find someone is easy for the internet to do.

What Ghosts SHOULD do is search for lowest ping first, and then of the matches with the lowest ping, which ones have the lowest number of hops. Like it should take a ping range. Find 50 matches in that range, and then search for the one with the least hops. It's a bug in the matchmaking that they need to fix. I'm not sure why they haven't yet. I'm hoping it will be in the upcoming patch. Or even better, they finally turn on dedicated servers.

Router settings can help. Changing my NAT type to Open or Moderate changes who I can connect to and I switch it up depending on the time of day. It's not perfect. I still get someone with a terrible ping to me on occasion, but it helped immensely.
#40_Signal(Topic Creator)Posted 2/13/2014 8:09:30 AM
Open NAT is so important.

I'm just glad that they finally fixed AC3 and AC4.

Back when I got AC3, it was not possible to connect to friends that were online and trying to connect to me. Now it seems to work fine, and AC4 works fine too.
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