What the heck is an arena shooter anyway?

#81falcon2legitPosted 7/15/2014 5:03:35 AM
Don't think so. If soup guy had to make steak, it would probably give you salmonella. He is limited and sucks without his chosen specialty.

And when people do well with one gun exclusively, it's practically never a difficult gun to use. How many glorified scrubs used the PR almost exclusively? A lot. The SR? None, really. I remember Chronic using it, but he was a good overall player, too.

This also applies to fighting games. Your yomi (reading) will always be sub-par if you haven't used all the characters enough to know what they're capable of, though you may have your own main(s).
#82CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 7/15/2014 8:16:52 AM(edited)
falcon2legit posted...
Don't think so. If soup guy had to make steak, it would probably give you salmonella. He is limited and sucks without his chosen specialty.

And when people do well with one gun exclusively, it's practically never a difficult gun to use. How many glorified scrubs used the PR almost exclusively? A lot. The SR? None, really. I remember Chronic using it, but he was a good overall player, too.

This also applies to fighting games. Your yomi (reading) will always be sub-par if you haven't used all the characters enough to know what they're capable of, though you may have your own main(s).


The biggest flaw in your whole argument, is that its impossible to isolate yourself from all the other elements of a game.

If you put in hours, you cannot help but learn all the elements of a game.
TCP for example. I've used it like, twice. But I've sure as heck had to deal with it. I've had to learn where peoples favorites spots are.
I've had to learn where everyones favorite PR spots are.
I know Brennan strategies on Pentagon, and how he sets up combat with guns that I don't use.
I know what paths Dug takes when he runs away.
I know that Mike cannot hit anything with shotty if you make him jump, or fight on uneven terrain.

I know how different people use their different guns, I have a good idea where they'll be, what they'll be doing, and how they set up the situation for their advantage. And I have to think about it, and figure out how I can dissect the situation, and use my skills, and my weapons to turn the situation around.

This whole idea is exclusivity is false, because people do not play the game alone.
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#83xXAISPXxPosted 7/15/2014 8:26:52 AM
CynralKynathel posted...
FALCON_ONLINE posted...
Uh, yeah, you're actually a completely f***ing awful chef if you can only make one dish.

It's the same with games. The PR is one easy weapon among many, and you have no versatility as a player if you couldn't also win with a SPAS or SR.


I didn't say he can only make 1 dish. If you play a shooter and are good with the PR, why wouldn't you be decent with a SCAR or an SR or a Carbonizer? They all are good with sniping and have to power to make the crosshair the smallest it can be. A person will naturally attempt to implement his style of play into new weapons as it's something he's familiar with. Just as the chef would naturally try to implement what he does best (making pizza) into his dishes.


What Lig said. If you're good at the Phase Rifle, it doesn't mean you're instantly good at the other weapons, especially the Carbonizer. While some weapons sort of prepare you for the bigger weapons, which the SCAR does well, it doesn't work vice versa. Take it from first-hand experience; I did have some great success with the SR, but I still had some flaws despite being a better PR user. Same goes for the Carbonizer which ended up better than the SR.
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#84CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 7/15/2014 11:38:24 AM
xXAISPXx posted...
CynralKynathel posted...
FALCON_ONLINE posted...
Uh, yeah, you're actually a completely f***ing awful chef if you can only make one dish.

It's the same with games. The PR is one easy weapon among many, and you have no versatility as a player if you couldn't also win with a SPAS or SR.


I didn't say he can only make 1 dish. If you play a shooter and are good with the PR, why wouldn't you be decent with a SCAR or an SR or a Carbonizer? They all are good with sniping and have to power to make the crosshair the smallest it can be. A person will naturally attempt to implement his style of play into new weapons as it's something he's familiar with. Just as the chef would naturally try to implement what he does best (making pizza) into his dishes.


What Lig said. If you're good at the Phase Rifle, it doesn't mean you're instantly good at the other weapons, especially the Carbonizer. While some weapons sort of prepare you for the bigger weapons, which the SCAR does well, it doesn't work vice versa. Take it from first-hand experience; I did have some great success with the SR, but I still had some flaws despite being a better PR user. Same goes for the Carbonizer which ended up better than the SR.


Well, if you think about it, There's like say... Tactical skill, which is knowledge based. How to use the weapon. Where to snipe from, How to not let the weight of the carbonizer slow you down, and knowing the timing of moving, jumping and ROF that you can use with the SR, and not get bloom gimped. Etc.

And then there is physical skill, which is ability based. How well you can track your reticule over a player, or move from target to target. How well you can cope W/o Lockon. How well you can manipulate the cameras. How fast you can fire, and how well you can coordinate different actions.

Ability based skill, for the most part, transfers well between all weapons. Its really the fundamental measure of game skill. How well you can point and shoot across various game circumstances. Different weapons may benifit more from one ability than another, for instance, Sniping with PR can be very timing based to quickly line up a shot, vs constantly following somebody with the carby. But practically, any high level play is going to require proficiency in both for either.

Learned and applied knowledge does not transfer between weapons very well, save for specific similarities. Say, moving between scoped in modes of SR, PR, and HVS are all reactivity easy, but each has their own particularities which must be learned, but the biggest piece of the pie is shared.

Now, this "Knowledge is skill" aspect, is probably one of my least favorite part of competative games. And really the main reason I dislike traditional fighters, and why I prefer brawl over melee.
It really bugs me when somebody can win, just because they are more familiar with say... The map. Its really the worst part of public matches online, and the hugest barrier for people trying to become involved in a game.

The beauty of the modern shooter isn't that people don't have to learn everything all at once.
THAT is the idea, really, behind some of this.
It reduces how much a player needs to know up front, bringing the accessibility barrier, down.

It doesn't remove skill from higher levels of play. Or, rather, not necessarily.
But rather it breaks things down into digestible pieces.

This is also why many good FPSs have maps which are "Safe Havens" for new players.
They're going to have to learn more maps eventually, and one map can only stay fun for so long, but it allows them to break up the learning process, and make it less daunting.
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#85FALCON_ONLINEPosted 7/15/2014 1:00:14 PM
I'll now try to sift through the diarrhea Chain just splattered all over my screen.

CHAINMAILLEKID posted...
There's like say... Tactical skill, which is knowledge based/And then there is physical skill


Congrats, you just figured out that you have to think AND push buttons when you play a game! And here I thought I was smart!

Ability based skill, for the most part, transfers well between all weapons.


"High-level play" doesn't involve randomness or terrible players falsely elevated to that echelon. A CoD player's "skillz" don't f***ing translate to CS or games like it. Why? Because he is used to aim assist, reduced ADS sensitivity, killstreak perks, and guns that act more like lasers with no recoil. He doesn't "translate" over to an arena shooter because all the crutches he relies on are gone. He'd get his own sack fed to him because he isn't used to the raw, unassisted skill that he would face. Thinking a CoD player could just go over and do fine in competitive CS, Quake, or whatever else is like thinking a paraplegic could just "translate" over to normal mobility and walk around.

Learned and applied knowledge does not transfer between weapons very well, save for specific similarities. Say, moving between scoped in modes of SR, PR, and HVS are all reactivity easy, but each has their own particularities which must be learned, but the biggest piece of the pie is shared.


Must be learned? This is a loadout-based FPS, random. That means you don't HAVE to learn anything but your chosen scrub gun. Stop trying to pretend there's skill in modern shooters.

Now, this "Knowledge is skill" aspect, is probably one of my least favorite part of competative games. And really the main reason I dislike traditional fighters, and why I prefer brawl over melee.


What kind of dumbass blather is this? First you're saying that there's two distinct kinds of skill, then you say that all guns have to be learned for their idiosyncrasies when they really don't, and now apparently one type of skill is dominant. This, and the random exclusivity bulls*** you came up with in the last post, make trying to get a coherent post from you is like trying to keep a gassed up homeless guy who's been taking shots all night from pissing all over himself. The real reason that you enjoy kiddie scrub fighters more is that you would suck in any real one. Brawl's entire "metagame", to completely violate that word, is just camp>poke>do random s***. That's why you don't see any "high-level" Smash players placing well in real fighting game tournaments, whereas top level KOF and SF players (Xian and Tokido, as a couple examples) are at that level in both games. You don't get this "translation of skill" idea because the games you like don't involve skill.

It really bugs me when somebody can win, just because they are more familiar with say... The map. Its really the worst part of public matches online, and the hugest barrier for people trying to become involved in a game.


First you're saying that there is actual skill in scrub shooters, but they should pander to casuals and let them do well with no knowedge of the game? Skill comes from practice and learning, not being spoon-fed free wins. It REQUIRES those hours of practice and learning about the game, and it's something you'll never achieve.
#86CHAINMAILLEKIDPosted 7/15/2014 1:14:32 PM
Yeah...

I have enough confidence in my post, and in the intellect of the users here, where I do not feel the need to even address that.
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#87FALCON_ONLINEPosted 7/15/2014 1:39:11 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
#88CynralKynathelPosted 7/15/2014 1:56:25 PM
CHAINMAILLEKID posted...
Yeah...

I have enough confidence in my post, and in the intellect of the users here, where I do not feel the need to even address that.


I feel like falcon's more butthurt than anything else.
:/
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Pseudo-official Co-'Pun'-isher of the Conduit 2 Board. I have veteran SCARs. Heheheh.
#89FALCON_ONLINEPosted 7/15/2014 2:24:49 PM
I'm not butthurt. Once again, you have a bad case of TPRTVD. You can't read emotion on the internet.

If anything, I'm drained of emotion. People spout bulls*** and then the rest of the terrible posters on this board show up to voice their equally useless opinion. It's really not a surprise that the most casual players here were also some of the most mediocre. Hell, god damn Cmofo could get a RoT, but ChainedInABasementKid goes beyond even that level of awful and starts telling people they got theirs illegitimately.

There is no debate here. You're the f***ing refuse of humanity, and you keep feeling the unnecesary need to prove that.
#90CynralKynathelPosted 7/15/2014 7:22:40 PM
FALCON_ONLINE posted...
I'm not butthurt. Once again, you have a bad case of TPRTVD. You can't read emotion on the internet.

If anything, I'm drained of emotion. People spout bulls*** and then the rest of the terrible posters on this board show up to voice their equally useless opinion. It's really not a surprise that the most casual players here were also some of the most mediocre. Hell, god damn Cmofo could get a RoT, but ChainedInABasementKid goes beyond even that level of awful and starts telling people they got theirs illegitimately.

There is no debate here. You're the f***ing refuse of humanity, and you keep feeling the unnecesary need to prove that.


Oh.
Now I get it.
You have a superiority complex.
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Pseudo-official Co-'Pun'-isher of the Conduit 2 Board. I have veteran SCARs. Heheheh.