Should Geth have Rights? (Spoilers)

#221RiggedtoblowPosted 6/20/2012 12:53:27 PM
HeadEXplode posted...
Riggedtoblow posted...

So what does this mean? Legion is lying about his wavering and is simply letting Shep choose for reasons unknown. The best possibility is that the problem forces Shepard to contend with the Geth on an emotional level, which while it may lead to the destruction of the heretics, leads to the survival of the Geth as a whole.

So in essence, the Geth are just machines with no soul who are simply feigning such things to try and ensure their survival. From this perspective, destroying the Geth is no big deal.


So was Legion faking it when he, for reasons he didn't understand himself, put on Shepard's armor, signifying his hero worship? Was he faking the shame he showed when he talked about his new capabilities thanks to the Reaper upgrades? Was he faking his anger when Shepard denied him his upgrades? Was he faking the desire to have a soul?


Basically. Humans are emotional, and are loathe to destroy things we see as similar to ourselves. Old war tactics involving war paint, stylized helmets, etc., are now viewed as a double edged sword. On one hand, they allowed the humans wearing these to feel less human, and more monster-like. This made them feel better about killing fellow humans as it was a way to disassociate from their human selves. But at the same time, looking slightly less human made their opponents far more willing to kill them in turn as it felt a little less like killing another human like you. So if the Geth made themselves seem far more like the other sapient races in the galaxy, they'd be far more unlikely to kill them. On top of that, not having to deal with human internal conflict and body language would make lying incredibly easy for them.

A good book to read that informs of this would be the Ghosts of Cannae, very comprehensive history book that explains how old combat worked on top of detailing the 2nd Punic War. I site it as my source on this.
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Living just for battle seems pretty sad, you know? ~Legault
We're about to be destroyed by... ARTIFICIAL FLAVORING!!! ~Power Rangers
#222merc_ninePosted 6/20/2012 1:09:24 PM
HeadEXplode posted...
merc_nine posted...
OmniVoid posted...
If they started shooting at the things that were shooting at me and were about to kill me, I would at least give them the time to explain themselves.

That's exactly how it happened with Legion.


I remember Legion just being on a derelict Reaper. You're very trusting.


Do you make it a habit to twist common knowledge to make it sound sinister even when everyone knows it's not?


In all of the ME universe, there is 1 entity that thinks the Geth should be saved...a Geth, found in a Cerberus research base in a Derelict Reaper. He saved you from 3 Husks, opened up a Mass Effect field Generator which EDI could have done, collapsed...and you trust him implicitly after that. Im just less trusting than you. Legion has given me no real reason to trust him
#223Retneug(Topic Creator)Posted 6/20/2012 1:09:34 PM
@Moonlight- You can maintain all you'd like that he's not human anymore, but the fact that the Crucible plans hadn't yet been discovered means he hasn't been set up to use it any more efficiently than any other organic, and machine or no he's still susceptible to indoctrination.

What about the dreams, man? Those weren't there before! And the star of them is a kid, (who ALWAYS appears with a caution sign behind him back on Earth; another watch of the intro will reveal this) who is, for some reason, chosen as the form of the Catalyst. The Rach'ni queen tells you that they were corrupted by the Reapers through the "songs of oily shadows", which match the dreams perfectly. Renegades don't show signs of indoctrination, they have respect for Reaper methods. We already know what full indoctrination looks like thanks to Saren and TIM, and renegade does't display those behaviours.

I already explained why changes having to do with the Crucible wouldn't have been possible, and also why such alterations wouldn't save him from indoctrination. Outside of that, it doesn't particularly matter to me whether he has extra powers or not. Neither of us has any evidence to support Shepard's transformation or lack thereof, but Occam's razor dictates that the answer with the least assumptions should be favoured until proven otherwise. Shepard started as a human; it is logical to conclude that he continued as such. The burden of proof is on you to make it seem otherwise.

Hmm... Shepard being skilled in combat and charismatic gives him a +5 to using giant, ancient machines? And being a nice guy gives him another +5? Damn, I really should've read the players' handbook more closely. Honestly, if you see Shepard being awesome as evidence that he can control the Reapers with no risk whatsoever, I'm wary of your judgement in selecting evidence.

Organics keep creating synthetics. The Reapers haven't even done half their job if all the organics are still alive after destroy. Plain and simple, the Reapers being destroyed is very bad for them. Also, it was outlined in the main story that Reapers all exist in stasis in dark space until the Citadel beacon is activated, at which point they all converge on the occupied galaxy and start killing/indoctrinating. I guess your point about there still being Reapers in dark space was supposed to make control look better because you'd have your Reapers to beat them back? A lovely thought, but with just as little evidence I can say "Oh, maybe there's ten bajillion Reapers still in dark space! All endings are equally stupid and pointless 'cuz there are more Reapers than we ever imagined!"

I just explained to you why a single ending favours the "shades of gray" concept of morality. The "optimal" moral behaviour, whether we speak of good/evil naughty/nice order/chaos, varies based on the situation. In the real world, it's not equally valid to be nice all the time and naughty all the time; in the former you'll get stabbed in the back, and in the latter everyone will hate you. This portrayal of morals would be BW's most mature yet. Look beyond the single ending and understand WHY having a single ending would have significance and meaning beyond saying "everything goes".

Even if we disagree on the definition of evil, we live in a world where evil decisions must be made. An officer sends men to die on a regular basis. A solider kills men he doesn't even know, sometimes even innocents. How "moral" you consider their actions varies based on the war's cause, their methods, and the victors in the end. Morals are relative based on a number of factors, and most games avoid exploring that... But ME3 is, in a deeply satisfying way. In a fight against a stronger military force, sacrifices must be made for victory. Javik may not understand much, be he knows soldiering.
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Just once I'd like to see a Futurama episode in which Hermes says, straight-up, "I smoke marijuana."
#224DestinPosted 6/20/2012 1:28:11 PM
merc_nine posted...
In all of the ME universe, there is 1 entity that thinks the Geth should be saved...


you make it sound like the Geth are dying from a disease and everybody is actively declining to look for a cure. who in the ME universe thinks the Salarians should be saved? the Geth are not in a perpetual state of imminent danger for every character to weigh in.
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Destin the Valiant
#225The moonlight knightPosted 6/20/2012 3:40:54 PM
What about the dreams, man?

It's brought up several times in the game that the weight of the galaxy being on Shepard is stressful, which is perfectly understandable. Trying to save that kid only to fail and later watch him get killed is a symbolic reminder that he's witnessing countless humans die every minute. It's really no surprise he'd get fixated on it and haunted by it since he personally had a chance to save the kid. Which perfectly explains why the Catalyst would take that form. A being that can take any form it wants, will either take a form familiar/friendly to the person they interact with, or one that can gain them leverage to influence the person they're talking to.

As for the warning signs, I was impressed by that observation when I first saw it, but in my NG+ run through, I've been on the lookout for warning signs, because I wanted to see if it's unusual for that many to show up with the boy, or if the game world is just plastered with them so much it's not surprising. I've found them to pretty much be all over the place, including during many cutscenes that have nothing to do with the boy. So that evidence is bunk. As for the oily shadows and such, from what I understood seeing that stuff while AWAKE is signs of indoctrination. There's a world of difference between a dream and a hallucination. Anything can crop up in a dream without it meaning anything about one's mind being manipulated.

Neither of us has any evidence to support Shepard's transformation or lack thereof, but Occam's razor dictates that the answer with the least assumptions should be favoured until proven otherwise.


Occam's razor is not some religious philosophy that dictates the least assumptions is statistically right more often than not. Occam's razor makes far more sense in its application towards testing different theories to see if they're true, not, as you're applying it, to suggest least assumptions=most likely to be true. I also think it's naive to conclude he's most likely still human after he was pieced back together with science and it's brought up multiple times, wondering if he's still even really him (something he himself can show doubt about), and isn't the way his appearance decays as a renegade also suggesting there's more to him than flesh and blood?

Hmm... Shepard being skilled in combat and charismatic gives him a +5 to using giant, ancient machines...


The point has always been that you've used far lesser examples of people as evidence that Shepard can't possibly control the Reapers, when Shepard is pretty much the most fantastical organic being to ever grace the ME universe. Hell, he can convince an indoctrinated Illusive Man he's wrong and to kill himself. Isn't that right there evidence his influence can overpower the Reapers?

A lovely thought, but with just as little evidence I can say "Oh, maybe there's ten bajillion Reapers still in dark space!


If every single Reaper in existence all bumrushes the galaxy with that much overconfidence in their success, they're dumber than they've been made out to be (hinted to at one point, too), and thus less difficult to control.

I just explained to you why a single ending favours the "shades of gray" concept of morality.


Just because that one ending would be A shade of gray, doesn't make the ending "shades of gray" - it's just one option forced on you. One morality. One outcome. No choice.

Even if we disagree on the definition of evil, we live in a world where evil decisions must be made. An officer sends men to die on a regular basis. A solider kills men he doesn't even know, sometimes even innocents.


Those are not the same thing as blatantly being self-serving and without empathy.
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#226merc_ninePosted 6/20/2012 10:16:27 PM
Its a story not just a game. ME1 they were the enemy, ME2 they were an enemy, ME3...enemy, unless you agree to give them Reaper brains. Legion has you brain washed.

So I just finished ME2 and Arrival, it I now recall thinking before ME3 came out, that one of the biggest plot holes at the time was how Shepard was NOT indoctrinated. Just seems like he should be.
#227The moonlight knightPosted 6/21/2012 3:39:51 AM
You have put forth extremely unconvincing arguments to support the idea the Geth are bad. >_>
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I am snazzier, hot, hot rant. Warily slight as.
Croak rush, OK? Weirder, almighty make out. ::)
#228ChocoboDreamsPosted 6/21/2012 3:46:41 AM
What Legion showed me in the cyber-world place was pretty much all I needed. When it all comes down to it, it's simple. The Geth were just defending themselves. If Legion's word isn't enough for you, then you need only the word of the Quarians themselves to solidify what Legion shows you. The Geth are not, in any way shape or form, "evil".

So in response to the topic's question, my personal vote goes to "yes", in that I think Geth should very well have freedom and be able to live their own existence. What was shown from Legion and EDI alone shows just what kind of "humanity" they're capable of.
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#229merc_ninePosted 6/21/2012 6:57:07 AM(edited)
The moonlight knight posted...
You have put forth extremely unconvincing arguments to support the idea the Geth are bad. >_>


M! 2 and 3. Your only evidence they are good is the words of a single Geth. Theyt didnt persue the Quarians....so what? How is that evidence? They were new and didnt know the implications. IF they killed all the Quarians, they would have been hunted down and destroyed by every species. Or they didnt want to stretch themselves too thin by expanding. They didnt kill every Quarian, but they did squat on the only place the Quarians could kill. If they are so smart, and wanted peace, they could have left, because they should have known that giving the Quarians their homeworld back would have gone a long way. The geth have no art or culture. They kill unarmed innocents and can be rewritten and controllled seemingly with little effort. They arent bad. They are just machines to be controlled as stated by every scientific mind in the Mass Effect universe. You should destroy them before they get out of control. Its extremely easy to gain your trust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJHmyeXXe-w
#230Retneug(Topic Creator)Posted 6/21/2012 1:38:09 PM
@Moonlight - I don't have time for a full response today, but I should be able to make one tomorrow.

Just a note about Occam's Razor; it can be applied to any debate and make sense. By applying it I'm not saying I'm guaranteed to be right because I support Shepard remaining in his natural state; I'm saying that this route requires less assumptions. I was trying to goad you into providing a little more circumstantial evidence for why Shepard must have been tampered with, because as your platform is currently I'm not seeing why you're so certain of your position in this matter.
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Just once I'd like to see a Futurama episode in which Hermes says, straight-up, "I smoke marijuana."