Should Geth have Rights? (Spoilers)

#231merc_ninePosted 6/21/2012 12:58:10 PM(edited)
I think definitely think Shepard has been tampered with

in Arrival he was, and at the beginning of ME2 I think he was. Hes not the same SHepard, I dont care what the Illusive Man says. Hes got some additions, some that he may not know about and for what purpose
#232ChocoboDreamsPosted 6/21/2012 1:03:23 PM
You're free to think whatever you like, that's the freedom of choice, but you come off as far too callous for your own good. There's nothing "more logical" about killing off all the Geth, that just means you couldn't even begin to entertain the prospect of "faith" and "trust". The kind of faith and trust that Legion had put in Shepard. Human traits.

There is no "right" answer to the Geth issue, just like there is no "right" answer to the Genophage issue; but there -is- a clear Paragon and Renegade to the argument. It's a classic "Man of Science" vs. "Man of Faith". Mordin slowly drifted from science to faith between games. The kind of thought that you possess is the kind of thought Mordin once possessed; when he modified the Genophage. Mordin eventually sacrificed himself do what "Man of Science" would deem illogical.

In my opinion, the people that wanted to destroy the Geth or control them, despite seeing their fully sentient and evolved minds, are more machine than the Geth themselves. The Geth just want freedom, and they got to where they are by defending themselves. They should not be denied their freedom.
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#233EmptyBladePosted 6/21/2012 1:18:53 PM(edited)
I'm surprised there's this much argument about whether a machine can be sentient.

This is a sci-fi universe, it has its own rules, and it's stated as fact in the game that they are sentient. End. Of. Discussion. Whether or not you think in real life any amount of programming can result in sentienceis irrelevant.

It'd be like if we were having a debate about how fast the Normandy can travel, and somebody said "Actually, in reality, even if you lowered an object's mass that wouldn't allow it to travel faster than light." Completely pointless! IN THIS UNIVERSE, lowering its mass enough lets you do that. And in this universe, the Quarians built machines that are sentient. Period.
#234ChocoboDreamsPosted 6/21/2012 1:23:52 PM
EmptyBlade posted...
I'm surprised there's this much argument about whether a machine can be sentient.

This is a sci-fi universe, it has its own rules, and it's stated as fact in the game that they are sentient. End. Of. Discussion. Whether or not you think in real life any amount of programming can result in sentienceis irrelevant.

It'd be like if we were having a debate about how fast the Normandy can travel, and somebody said "Actually, in reality, even if you lowered an object's mass that wouldn't allow it to travel faster than light." Completely pointless! IN THIS UNIVERSE, lowering its mass enough lets you do that. And in this universe, the Quarians built machines that are sentient. Period.


That's actually something I wanted to bring up in my post as well. I don't see the point in arguing against what an artificial intelligence like the Geth is capable of when there's nothing "real" to compare it to. :P It's not like we have AI that advanced in real life, if anything it can be argued that what we have of AI in real life isn't even actually AI, at least not in comparison to what we see in video games.
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#235The moonlight knightPosted 6/21/2012 4:50:09 PM
Just a note about Occam's Razor; it can be applied to any debate and make sense. By applying it I'm not saying I'm guaranteed to be right because I support Shepard remaining in his natural state; I'm saying that this route requires less assumptions.

But so what if it requires less assumptions? I don't understand why people apply this like this in arguments. Has there been some universal scientific tests that concluded that generally, explanations that have fewer assumptions are statistically more likely to be true about the universe?

I was trying to goad you into providing a little more circumstantial evidence for why Shepard must have been tampered with, because as your platform is currently I'm not seeing why you're so certain of your position in this matter.


I'm not certain. I just think it's a possibility that doesn't make sense to just dismiss. He died. A lot of fuss is made about how badly mangled he was, and doubts about if it's even really him anymore. With how little it takes for people to latch onto IT, I would think foreshadowing and reasonable doubt would be more than enough to prevent outright dismissal.

This all really has to do with the issue of whether or not Shepard can control the Reapers. Even if Shepard is just human, he is still a human that has come back from death, and depending on how awesome you are, has brought quite a bit of peace and patched up a lot of old racial wounds, and basically united the whole galaxy. He is, at the very least, in a sense the Batman of the MEverse, as he has to at least represent an extreme extraordinary example of humanity. Which in turn I would say puts him far above the likes of someone like the Illusive Man.

Plus, at the end, if you're been consistently Paragony with Illusive Man, you can convince him he's wrong and he kills himself, while he's indoctrinated. This to me not only supports my idea of the Control ending being good if you are thoroughly paragon enough, but also supports my idea that it is possible to control/overpower the Reapers as Shepard is demonstrated to be able to win the battle against the Reapers when it came to Illusive Man's perspective. That's got to count for something.

And also, the first encounter with Illusive Man, on Mars, he is already talking about bringing humanity to "the apex of evolution" which, while his means to do that is controlling them, still sounds exactly in line with what the Catalyst says of synthesis. In fact it may have even used the term "apex of evolution" in describing it. >_> Which supports my argument that it's more important to consider WHAT the Illusive Man wanted to do with that control, which ties directly into the synthesis ending.

It should also be noted that by the time Illusive Man had any hope of even trying to control them, he was already very far gone down the path of indoctrination, whereas Shepard doesn't appear that way at all (unless maybe if you're full renegade), so it also doesn't seem to be fair to lump Shepard in with him. If Shepard only just then makes the decision to try and control them, he's clearly far more pure than Illusive Man was when he tried.
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#236merc_ninePosted 6/21/2012 5:30:06 PM(edited)
ChocoboDreams posted...
You're free to think whatever you like, that's the freedom of choice, but you come off as far too callous for your own good. There's nothing "more logical" about killing off all the Geth, that just means you couldn't even begin to entertain the prospect of "faith" and "trust". The kind of faith and trust that Legion had put in Shepard. Human traits.

There is no "right" answer to the Geth issue, just like there is no "right" answer to the Genophage issue; but there -is- a clear Paragon and Renegade to the argument. It's a classic "Man of Science" vs. "Man of Faith". Mordin slowly drifted from science to faith between games. The kind of thought that you possess is the kind of thought Mordin once possessed; when he modified the Genophage. Mordin eventually sacrificed himself do what "Man of Science" would deem illogical.

In my opinion, the people that wanted to destroy the Geth or control them, despite seeing their fully sentient and evolved minds, are more machine than the Geth themselves. The Geth just want freedom, and they got to where they are by defending themselves. They should not be denied their freedom.


Faith and trust, what the Reapers seem to like to exploit. Those things are weaknesses to a machine. It would appeal to those.
Betraying friends, trusting enemies.

and to me, a problem was created. and instead of fixing it, it was ignored because it was out in the edge of space and it only killed the Quarians who everyone felt deserved it, since there were laws against it and they broke them. Had they attacked everyone, they would have been destroyed long ago. That's why the geth didn't peruse the Quarians.

The geth are put under Reaper control every other second. They are dangerous, even if they mean well. Cerberus can hack them. You can sabotage them and control them. 50,000 years in the future, the geth will be around. They cant die off from famin or disease. They dont get tired, they just advance. They have already surpassed organics, and right now they are curious about us. Oh isnt that cute, theyre just studying us to learn about us. Just learning how we react to stimulus. The only reason maybe to not kill them is if you give them the Reaper code, but that to me is an even worse decision. How could you just create more Reaper like machines. Everything the Reaper touches it corrupts. Why is it different this one time? At that point in the game you didnt know there was just gonna be a Reaper off switch. The geth are a significant threat no matter what. They are a bunch of computers linked together. THe thing they walk around in are just the units. Legion isnt a person. It is a thing. In mine he was turned over to Cerberus. They can think but they can not feel.

It is the same as the genophage issue and my Mordin is fine with me sabotaging the genophage. Under Wreav's leadership, its pretty obvious they would threaten the galaxy again, but you can doom everyone if you think thats the sweeter thing to do. Run your little girl scout troop.
#237EmptyBladePosted 6/21/2012 6:11:45 PM
merc_nine posted...
The geth are put under Reaper control every other second. They are dangerous, even if they mean well.


The geth were the first controlled by them, so what? I don't know if you somehow missed this story point, but everybody else who comes into contact with the Reapers eventually gets controlled too.

Cerberus can hack them. You can sabotage them and control them.


You're talking about their mobile units, not themselves. That's like saying your huge atlas-class armored body mech can be hacked. Oh wait, it can!

50,000 years in the future, the geth will be around. They cant die off from famin or disease. They dont get tired, they just advance. They have already surpassed organics, and right now they are curious about us.


You want to kill them off because you see them as superior? You're like those oil tycoon douches that want to stifle energy research because it's a threat to their business model.
#238merc_ninePosted 6/21/2012 6:23:34 PM
EmptyBlade posted...
merc_nine posted...
The geth are put under Reaper control every other second. They are dangerous, even if they mean well.


The geth were the first controlled by them, so what? I don't know if you somehow missed this story point, but everybody else who comes into contact with the Reapers eventually gets controlled too.

Cerberus can hack them. You can sabotage them and control them.


You're talking about their mobile units, not themselves. That's like saying your huge atlas-class armored body mech can be hacked. Oh wait, it can!

50,000 years in the future, the geth will be around. They cant die off from famin or disease. They dont get tired, they just advance. They have already surpassed organics, and right now they are curious about us.


You want to kill them off because you see them as superior? You're like those oil tycoon douches that want to stifle energy research because it's a threat to their business model.


Right, you can hack geth just like you can any machine. They cant feel. Yeah, I want to destroy the super advanced machines. It not like theres any other super advanced machines around that are bad. How many examples do you need. Lets count the Reapers. 1, 2, 3, 100000000000000. Theres a few examples of what happens when you give a super advance machine a lot of time. Yeah. I do want to destroy them because they surpassed us. They have no feelings. They have no compassion. They side with you because of math and logic, You should be afraid of them, but because one told you not to be, you arent. If you kill the Reapers, and the geth were still around, youd eventually get Reapers from the Geth. I dont know where you get this rainbows and sunshine future with super advanced AIs all over the place helping organics with plowing fields. Wouldnt that be a waste of their time? THey have no purpose for us, unless you count the one the Reapers found.
#239The moonlight knightPosted 6/21/2012 6:24:31 PM
In ME2 Morinth could "hack" organics.

Whoops.
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I am snazzier, hot, hot rant. Warily slight as.
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#240BhelliumPosted 6/21/2012 6:32:05 PM
The moonlight knight posted...
In ME2 Morinth could "hack" organics.

Whoops.


In all of them the Reapers hack everything fleshy they can.
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