Should Geth have Rights? (Spoilers)

#251merc_ninePosted 6/22/2012 6:51:47 AM
EmptyBlade


"Yes, they are a machine. This completely doesn't respond to the point."

So what is your point? Because mine is that they are machines so destroying them is not cruel. They can not feel pain and suffering. They are machines. Being able to hack them is evidence of that. Its clearly you that is missing the point. I asked a question that you answered exactly the way I wanted you to in order to prove my point and you are trying to use it as evidence.

"I'm not the one that stated a specific number, so arguing to me "we don't know how many they are" makes you look even stupider."

You think I wrote that as a specific number? Its a 1 with a bunch of zeros, it just means a lot. You are losing the argument if thats what you are resorting to. You should correct my grammar and punctuation next.


"You just said it yourself: they are worse. In fact, they are demonstrating to us at that very moment how bad they are by pressing the attack. Maybe they'll turn on humans next, we better wipe em out.

It's not logical for the geth to attack us, they don't want the same things we want. Why would they want to attack us? The only reason for them to do that is fear that we'll attack them.

So congratulations, YOU are the only reason for the geth to attack us. After you wipe them out and it goes down in our histories, when the next AI rises up and sees that, they'll have reason to strike us down"


The geth is an entirely different situation than the Quarians. THe point is, you cant just wipe the Geth out. They are more advanced than organics. This is your only opportunity and instead you upgraded them to Reapers. The Quarians are easy to wipe out.

Youre saying that after the Reapers and the Geth is recorded in history, that someone else will decide to create more? Then we should just let the Reapers reap us. How is it not logical for them ever to attack us? You mean right now, and I agree, there is no reason for them to. But there will be eventually, and by then they will have advanced 10 times over.
#252EmptyBladePosted 6/22/2012 7:14:09 AM(edited)
merc_nine posted...
So what is your point? Because mine is that they are machines so destroying them is not cruel. They can not feel pain and suffering. They are machines. Being able to hack them is evidence of that. Its clearly you that is missing the point. I asked a question that you answered exactly the way I wanted you to in order to prove my point and you are trying to use it as evidence.


Wow, failure to follow your own thread of logic. At this point in the discussion, we are discussing YOUR point was that being easy to hack makes them dangerous, we were not arguing about whether or not they are machines. That's called a strawman argument.

The last thing I pointed out in response is that what you are considering hacked is not a geth, only the vehicles they move around in. Our vehicles can be hacked just as easily.

The only ones to hack actual geth are reapers, and guess what. They pretty much "hack" us too.

That was posts ago, you haven't responded to that point.

You think I wrote that as a specific number? Its a 1 with a bunch of zeros, it just means a lot. You are losing the argument if thats what you are resorting to. You should correct my grammar and punctuation next.


The point being you making up a stupid big number to try to artficially make your point sound stronger (btw THAT is what someone without a real point does). 100 trillion reapers in the galaxy. That's hundreds of thousands of times larger than the number of planets in our galaxy.

The geth is an entirely different situation than the Quarians. THe point is, you cant just wipe the Geth out. They are more advanced than organics. This is your only opportunity and instead you upgraded them to Reapers. The Quarians are easy to wipe out.


You're avoiding the discussion about your own point AGAIN.

YOUR point was that them being logical and unfeeling makes them dangerous. Remember where you said that? I'm asking why a logical race that doesn't need the same types of resources we do would ever want to attack us. Guess what? They wouldn't. Geth can reside on any planet, they don't want the life-supporting ones. Hell they don't even need planets, they could reside on servers adrift in space harnessing solar energy.

They are not logically an expansionist species. And it shows in the game, where they never try to expand their space unless controlled by the reapers.

The only reason they'd have to want to wipe us out, is fear that we would wipe them out. YOU and people like you are the only reason for them to attack us.


Youre saying that after the Reapers and the Geth is recorded in history, that someone else will decide to create more? Then we should just let the Reapers reap us. How is it not logical for them ever to attack us? You mean right now, and I agree, there is no reason for them to. But there will be eventually, and by then they will have advanced 10 times over.


No. I'm saying someone will eventually make AI again. That is inevitable. And when that AI reads our histories and sees we wiped out the last AI for no reason, then they WILL have a logical reason to attack us. One you gave them.
#253merc_ninePosted 6/22/2012 7:05:24 AM
So in the ME Universe, 2 people agree that you should spare the Geth. Legion, and the Quarian Admiral in ME2 that is unanimously labeled a dbag.
#254merc_ninePosted 6/22/2012 7:39:48 AM
Yes they can hack us too, but it seems to be significantly more complex and difficult to hack organics. Its not as simple as just uploading a code to one and then infecting the enitre race...or is it. It is said that the end result of Indoctrination is the thrall becomes an amplifier.

But the reason that was brought up, was to point out that they are just machines. Which you have confirmed. The ability to hack the isnt what makes them dangerous. Their existence is dangerous. Thats just one of many reasons, and that reason lends itself as proof that they are just machines so this sympathy that people feel for them is because they walk around in humanoid shells and pronounce your name wrong. You are identifying with something you can not identify with.

How many Reapers would you say there are? It looked like quite a bit at the end of ME2. 250,000? Better number? The point was that the number was not supposed to be hard evidence obviously. It was more of a joke response but you took it literal and are trying to make your point with it. The point is that there are a lot of Reapers and each one represents a cycle which had reached the apex or pinnacle of its civilization, which seems to always coincide with the creation of AIs. So it means that is our highest point, and from there its all down hill.

They can reside on any planet, yet the peaceful geth squatted on the only world that the Quarians could live on. Real peaceful. You say they have no reason to attack organics yet Ive played 3 games of them attacking organics. The Reapers need organics. What if the Geth multiply? What if organics do? Thats what happened with the Krogans. The Geth should just float around in space not bothering anyone but they dont.

RIght, the only reason the would wipe us out is in fear of us doing it to them. But thats a logical fear is it not? So logically they would be smart to destroys us, or better yet, use us. I dont know why seeing the Geth and Quarians sharing the planet for 30 seconds is any indication that that would last more than 5 minutes.
#255DestinPosted 6/22/2012 8:00:01 AM
merc_nine has almost convinced me that the best thing for the galaxy is to wipe out all organics.
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Destin the Valiant
#256merc_ninePosted 6/22/2012 8:31:47 AM(edited)
Destin posted...
merc_nine has almost convinced me that the best thing for the galaxy is to wipe out all organics.


Thats the point. How can you not assume that the Geth will not eventually come to that same conclusion. Its not because they are evil, its because of the short comings of organics. So if you had to choose a side, you would choose the side of synthetics, yet I'm the one who is Indoctrinated and trusting enemies.
#257DestinPosted 6/22/2012 8:30:29 AM
merc_nine posted...
So if you had to choose a side, you would choose the side of synthetics, yet I'm the one who is Indoctrinated and trusting enemies.


well yes, the Reaper's goal is to preserve organics. so an indoctrinated person will try to preserve organics against logic.

the problem with the Reapers is why are they continuing the cycle? why don't they let synthetics wipe out all organics? the existence of the organics is the cause of the problem.
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Destin the Valiant
#258merc_ninePosted 6/22/2012 8:38:53 AM
Destin posted...
merc_nine posted...
So if you had to choose a side, you would choose the side of synthetics, yet I'm the one who is Indoctrinated and trusting enemies.


well yes, the Reaper's goal is to preserve organics. so an indoctrinated person will try to preserve organics against logic.

the problem with the Reapers is why are they continuing the cycle? why don't they let synthetics wipe out all organics? the existence of the organics is the cause of the problem.


Because they need organics to create more. Synthentics threaten that cycle and if given enough time to develope could possible rival the Reapers. I think you should use the Geth to help defeat the Reapers. I'm just saying thank god they get destroyed along with them, otherwise you'd have a big problem after. Its a cycle.
#259EmptyBladePosted 6/22/2012 8:54:07 AM
merc_nine posted...
Yes they can hack us too, but it seems to be significantly more complex and difficult to hack organics.


Seems to me like we're getting indoctrinated just as easily, it's just a longer process. Plus at least the geth have no problem identifying their heretics, whereas its way harder for us to figure out who's indoctrinated. Which makes an indoctrinated organic MUCH more dangerous.

But the reason that was brought up, was to point out that they are just machines.


Nobody ever argued that they weren't machines. That's why it's a strawman to act like that's what the discussion is about. We all agreed from the beginning they are machines, so why are you trying to prove it?

It was more of a joke response but you took it literal and are trying to make your point with it.


No, it is not part of MY point at all. I continue to respond to it because YOU brought it up as support for what you are saying and continue to respond to the side-thread you started. If it was not a serious point, you could have just dropped it yourself at any point, you still can. It has no bearing on my points, it is one of yours.

They can reside on any planet, yet the peaceful geth squatted on the only world that the Quarians could live on. Real peaceful. You say they have no reason to attack organics yet Ive played 3 games of them attacking organics. The Geth should just float around in space not bothering anyone but they dont.


3 games of reaperized geth, or self-defense every single time. Guess what, reaperized organics attack you in every game too.

Floating around space not bothering anyone is exactly what they do. If you don't go out of your way to antagonize them, you will not be attacked by non-reaper geth. In fact, they don't even live in their robot bodies 99% of the time, they were in the middle of building a big server for them all to go live on.

RIght, the only reason the would wipe us out is in fear of us doing it to them. But thats a logical fear is it not? So logically they would be smart to destroys us


By your reasoning, there should be no galactic community. Every species upon contact with any other should immediately try to wipe them out.

In fact, there should be no society at all. My neighbor could kill me some day too, if he were to die today that'd be a threat removed.

The only people that anybody needs protection from are people like you. A trait the geth have not yet demonstrated.

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The ironic thing in all of this is that you are so concerned that everyone else is humanizing geth, feeling sympathy because we are thinking of them like humans. But the one that is doing that the most is you.

Believing they act out of fear, or will have random aggression, is because you are assigning them human traits. Your car is a very dangerous vehicle, but do you worry some day it'll just randomly decide to run you over as you walk into the garage? No.

Being intelligent does not give you these traits. Have you ever read the sequels to Ender's game? Minor spoilers,









but an AI at some point is threatened with death. Her only friend talks to her about it, and learns she does not fear it at all. In fact is totally ambivalent about it. She replies (paraphrased) "You got your intelligence through natural selection. Your intelligence is designed to reproduce and survive, that's why you care whether you live or not. Mine was an accident, I was never designed to care if I live."

If the geth care that they live, it's only because the Quarians designed them to. They were not designed for inherent aggression, they've demonstrated this already. There is no reason for them to spontaneously BECOME designed for this in the future.
#260merc_ninePosted 6/22/2012 9:01:13 AM
Why did they attack the Quarians in ME2 on Halestrom? Why did they not take the Aleria in ME2 and just leave?

You equate them as cars, and I equate them with nuclear bombs. The keep developing new ways to kill.