Should Geth have Rights? (Spoilers)

#281EmptyBladePosted 6/24/2012 12:14:39 AM(edited)
merc_nine posted...
If its a machine, then its not alive.


I don't agree, and I keep asking what is your reasoning? There's whole branches of scholarly and philosophical debate about whether machines can be alive or not, and you think with your limited point of view you can just state one side as fact and provide no proof or reasoning? Google "can a machine be alive" there's over a hundred million results. Even in the Mass Effect universe, there are people that argue that AI are alive.

Furthermore, whatever you want to call alive or not, in the Mass Effect universe it is stated as fact that they are intelligent. Most people would say that anything that is intelligent deserves rights, it has nothing to do with being alive or not. There are craptons of things in this world that are alive and don't have rights. Grass is alive and doesn't have rights. Bacteria are alive and don't have rights.

As I said before, you are not backing what you say, you are just saying it. You say repeatedly machines are not alive, I ask for your reasoning, you give none. I also ask you now why you have to be alive to have rights.

Answer these questions, don't just repeat to me machines are not alive and then say nothing to back it up.

I am not saying we should attack the Geth.


You have to be kidding me. You've been arguing exactly that this whole time. In fact this was you JUST ONE POST AGO.

I dont want to fight the geth. I think its necessary.


So you're saying it's necessary to fight them, but you're not saying we should attack them. I'm a bit confused here.
#282merc_ninePosted 6/24/2012 11:10:33 AM
The Reapers are not machines as stated by EDI.

Im not changing the story. I think they should be destroyed and when you have the chance you should...whether thats when their shields are down or if you wait until the Cruicicle is ready and pick Destroy. Intelligence doesnt make something alive, especially when the word Artificial comes right before it. I bring up SIRI because it didnt seem like there was much debate until one of them talked to you. oooohhhh. So advanced. Its a Terminator. They were intelligent. One of them wanted to help.

Youre reasoning for thinking they are alive and friendly comes from one character, and you are saying the Reapers and EDI can lie, but Legion would never do that. His whole existence is to get you to favor them. The Geth could have shown you anything they wanted to in the Geth world.

What are you supposed to do once the Reapers are gone, the Krogan are expanding, and the Geth have Reaper intelligence? The Reaper intelligence lead them to exterminate the galaxy every 50,000 years, so clearly they can wait and be patient, but the Geth allowing the Quarians to exist a year or 2 is some sign of peace forever.

Where do you find Legion every time he shows up?

In my playthrough he is in Cerberus hands. I have played many different ways and if you play it paragon and thank Legion every time he does something against your orders it seems fine, but if you play Renagade and call him out on his deception then it seems a lot different. Why should I be happy about Legion activating 8 Primes and surrounding us? Those are Legions body guards, they arent there to help. The Geth arent very peaceful. How many Geth have actually been killed so far? Arent the bodies just mobile platforms and the consciousness is somewhere else? SO there have been no Geth casualties, yet they have killed many organics.

Without the Reaper upgrades, the Geth are not alive. Thats why Legion wants it. Im sorry you cant tell Pinocchio hes not a real boy.

I wouldnt kill the Krogan but I would sabotage the genophage cure because Wrex is dead and Wreav wants revenge.

All I am saying is that there would be people who think this way in the ME universe and it would inevitably cause conflict and the Geth would win because they are far more advanced.

Hell, I think EDI set up the situation where she was unshackled. She sent the whole squad onto the shuttle and the only ones left to fight were the remaining crew and Joker. She doesnt ask to be unshackled. She orders it.
#283schlaufuchsMIKEPosted 6/25/2012 9:15:54 AM
EmptyBlade posted...
Most people would say that anything that is intelligent deserves rights, it has nothing to do with being alive or not. There are craptons of things in this world that are alive and don't have rights. Grass is alive and doesn't have rights. Bacteria are alive and don't have rights.


By this reasoning, many people shouldn't have rights.
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#284EmptyBladePosted 6/25/2012 12:43:50 PM
merc_nine posted...
Im not changing the story. I think they should be destroyed and when you have the chance you should...whether thats when their shields are down or if you wait until the Cruicicle is ready and pick Destroy.


And as I've said a bunch of times now, you would only guarantee that all future AI logically have to destroy us. AI is technology, you cannot stop it forever. People will always be making them somewhere. If you make it so we cannot live in peace with them, and by your own admission you do not believe we can win at war, then we ARE doomed to die eventually.

You are making the god-child correct. The only way to make him wrong is to live in peace with AI.

Intelligence doesnt make something alive, especially when the word Artificial comes right before it.


You're sidestepping my point. My point was whether or not something is intelligent is MORE IMPORTANT than whether or not they are alive.

If life is what gives rights, then are you saying grass has rights? No, because grass is not intelligent. Intelligence is what gives rights.

All I am saying is that there would be people who think this way in the ME universe and it would inevitably cause conflict and the Geth would win because they are far more advanced.


You can probably find people somewhere in the united states who think we should conquer Canada, what's your point? Are you saying because of that we can't avoid war with Canada? All that matters is what the people in charge do.
#285BigKahnPosted 6/25/2012 12:44:49 PM
Machines don't have a soul or heart so they can't have rights.


/Topic.
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#286ChocoboDreamsPosted 6/25/2012 1:01:41 PM
BigKahn posted...
Machines don't have a soul or heart so they can't have rights.


/Topic.


Personally, I think it's debatable that the people who wanted to destroy the Geth because they asked if they have a soul are the ones without a soul.
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#287merc_ninePosted 6/25/2012 1:06:26 PM
ChocoboDreams posted...
BigKahn posted...
Machines don't have a soul or heart so they can't have rights.


/Topic.


Personally, I think it's debatable that the people who wanted to destroy the Geth because they asked if they have a soul are the ones without a soul.


No, they just realized, oh crap, we just did something thats against the law and SKynet just turned on. We should turn that off. Its a logical response. Is Sarah Conner crazy? The geth are only alive if you give them the Reaper upgrades according to Legion.
#288merc_ninePosted 6/25/2012 5:25:30 PM
So I just got to the the Geth Dreadnought on my playthrough where I turned Legion over to Cerberus, and in this playthrough Legion is a hologram and its name on the map is Geth VI instead of Legion. Just thought that was interesting. What is it exactly? It is also a lot less forth coming with information. It says the Reapers mind wasnt really important.
#289FaDRainPosted 6/25/2012 6:13:32 PM(edited)
Erm....every single Geth is part of the consenus, you can't 'crash' it, you'd have to destroy it..

I counter your claim that they are selfish by pointing out the fact that they have been maintaining Rannoch for centuries when it has no benefit to them.
Also, they wish to coexist, 'coexistence' implies some level of interaction beyond saying 'see ya, we're all going to live in our Dsyon Sphere now', which in turn implies that at some point they will involve themselves in situations that aren't beneficial.

They believe that every being has the right to self determinate, including themselves, the True Geth let the Heretics go because of this. Legion states in regards to the rewrite that the Heretics will still be able to choose their original path if they wish.






I've mentioned Lekgolo (Halo) in a Geth related topic before because Lekgolo pretty much = fleshy Geth. To be more accurate, Geth = synthetic Lekgolo, but smarter individually.
#290EmptyBladePosted 6/25/2012 6:07:52 PM
EmptyBlade posted...
merc_nine posted...
Im not changing the story. I think they should be destroyed and when you have the chance you should...whether thats when their shields are down or if you wait until the Cruicicle is ready and pick Destroy.


And as I've said a bunch of times now, you would only guarantee that all future AI logically have to destroy us. AI is technology, you cannot stop it forever. People will always be making them somewhere. If you make it so we cannot live in peace with them, and by your own admission you do not believe we can win at war, then we ARE doomed to die eventually.

You are making the god-child correct. The only way to make him wrong is to live in peace with AI.

Intelligence doesnt make something alive, especially when the word Artificial comes right before it.


You're sidestepping my point. My point was whether or not something is intelligent is MORE IMPORTANT than whether or not they are alive.

If life is what gives rights, then are you saying grass has rights? No, because grass is not intelligent. Intelligence is what gives rights.

All I am saying is that there would be people who think this way in the ME universe and it would inevitably cause conflict and the Geth would win because they are far more advanced.


You can probably find people somewhere in the united states who think we should conquer Canada, what's your point? Are you saying because of that we can't avoid war with Canada? All that matters is what the people in charge do.


Merc?