Should Geth have Rights? (Spoilers)

#41plasticman13Posted 6/8/2012 1:20:42 PM
@darknessry I was agreeing with your argument until you pulled the definition of life. The Geth are NOT organic, and there is no such thing as "sub-organic" UNLESS you can somehow fuse an organic with synthetic material (like the Synthesis ending). Geth are machines/synthetics, plain and simple. There is nothing organic about them. Then, the Geth CANNOT grow through metabolism, heck they cannot grow at all. Finally, Geth CANNOT reproduce. Taking scraps of metal and putting them together is no where close to sexual or asexual reproduction, nor does it even fit the definition of reproduction. The only part in the definition of life that fits the Geth is the ability to adapt. Your argument was strong, but this definition just threw it out the window.
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#42NicodaemosPosted 6/8/2012 1:20:48 PM
From: plasticman13 | #036
Legion didn't have any feelings. For all we know he was trying to trick Shepard so that he wouldn't destroy the Geth. Legion's true intentions are revealed when you go Renegade and choose to destroy the Geth because all of his so called "emotions" fly out the window when he nearly kills Shepard.

You're really shooting yourself in the foot. First you say he has no feelings, and then you cite the Geth's sense of self-preservation, and Legion's attachment to his own kind. So what kind of logic are you operating on? Emotions only exist if they don't conflict with your opinions? Honestly, how the **** do you think they should respond in the face of their own extinction?


As for living in "peace" with the Quarians, we have no evidence that the Geth will actually live in peace. They can easily keep the Quarians as "comrades" and once they feel threatened (planet overpopulation, resource depletion) they will go on a massive killing spree for self preservation, once again from to the lack of empathy or intrinsic values due to being machines.

And the Quarians could do the same if they wanted. Your point?


EDI is the same. She does not know emotions or empathy.

Yeah, even though the progression of dialogue with her over the course of the game (and even ME2) literally implies the exact opposite. Don't comment on a topic like this when you clearly just mash A during plot points.
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#43RumJungleJuicePosted 6/8/2012 1:24:35 PM
What we call rights are nothing more than what you could call a mutual contract you hope other people will follow.

Right on.
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#44darknessryPosted 6/8/2012 1:34:50 PM(edited)
plasticman13 posted...
@darknessry I was agreeing with your argument until you pulled the definition of life. The Geth are NOT organic, and there is no such thing as "sub-organic" UNLESS you can somehow fuse an organic with synthetic material (like the Synthesis ending). Geth are machines/synthetics, plain and simple. There is nothing organic about them. Then, the Geth CANNOT grow through metabolism, heck they cannot grow at all. Finally, Geth CANNOT reproduce. Taking scraps of metal and putting them together is no where close to sexual or asexual reproduction, nor does it even fit the definition of reproduction. The only part in the definition of life that fits the Geth is the ability to adapt. Your argument was strong, but this definition just threw it out the window.


I see what you mean but Geth do reproduce. Maybe not by sex or organic means but they create each other by definition. The geth would create other software and hardware for a new unit. Throwing together metal and wire isn't creating life, it's creating a platform. Making life is the making of the software of a geth, which we have no insight into.

I never said they had metabolism or they could grow. They can't.

As for the organic part, you are correct. They are NOT organic but what I was trying to say is that they do have reasons which they can't even explain. Emotions is a strong word but they have a lesser version I believe in their mind. I mean they have a mind of a organic and the body of a synthetic.
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#45plasticman13Posted 6/8/2012 1:33:20 PM
@nicodaemos. Think of it this way, they do not care about the existence of any other creatures as long as they can thrive. The inability to respond to the needs of other creatures, thus the inability to empathize is the reason they cannot be considered with these "rights". The Geth don't have emotions, they're a single unit connected to a mother "consensus" and when they are exposed to a threat, they collectively retaliate (like a computer when it has a virus). You crash the mother consensus, then the Geth are just empty scraps of metal.

Besides, the Geth don't have any values, nor are they worth any values. I can simply take Legion's programming chip, duplicate it a million times, insert it into a million Geth and create a million Legions. You could form an argument about cloning, but an organic clone is still its own individual. It may have the same genes and phenotypes, but its ability to think for itself and to grow for itself differentiates it from its clone. It's intrinsic values is what gives it the natural rights it deserves. The Geth don't have this, thus they don't have any rights.
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#46plasticman13Posted 6/8/2012 1:38:41 PM
From: darknessry | #044
plasticman13 posted...
@darknessry I was agreeing with your argument until you pulled the definition of life. The Geth are NOT organic, and there is no such thing as "sub-organic" UNLESS you can somehow fuse an organic with synthetic material (like the Synthesis ending). Geth are machines/synthetics, plain and simple. There is nothing organic about them. Then, the Geth CANNOT grow through metabolism, heck they cannot grow at all. Finally, Geth CANNOT reproduce. Taking scraps of metal and putting them together is no where close to sexual or asexual reproduction, nor does it even fit the definition of reproduction. The only part in the definition of life that fits the Geth is the ability to adapt. Your argument was strong, but this definition just threw it out the window.


I see what you mean but Geth do reproduce. Maybe not by sex or organic means but they create each other by definition. The geth would create other software and hardware for a new unit.

As for the organic part, you are correct. They are NOT organic but what I was trying to say is that they do have reasons which they can't even explain. Emotions is a strong word but they have a lesser version I believe in their mind. I mean they have a mind of a organic and the body of a synthetic.

Thanks for keeping a sane and respectful argument, unlike that other guy who's replying to me. Potentially the Geth can create rights of their own which they can follow and live with by themselves. But extending human rights, and natural rights to something that is not human nor natural is not plausible. If the Geth deserve rights, then they should create their own and honestly move as far away from organics as possible. The Quarians are douches I'll admit, but I can't bring myself to support a synthetic over an organic, no matter how stupid the organic is.
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#47NicodaemosPosted 6/8/2012 1:46:30 PM(edited)
From: plasticman13 | #045
@nicodaemos. Think of it this way, they do not care about the existence of any other creatures as long as they can thrive. The inability to respond to the needs of other creatures, thus the inability to empathize is the reason they cannot be considered with these "rights".

Which is why they are willing to cooperate with the Quarians in re-colonizing Rannoch, even though they could have simply killed them all for the sake of practicality.


The Geth don't have emotions,

Exactly, which would explain things like the value they place in the memory of Quarians that sided with them during the rebellions, an attachment to a certain model of firearm even though it has most likely been outdated, and hero-worship of Shepard.


I can simply take Legion's programming chip, duplicate it a million times, insert it into a million Geth and create a million Legions. You could form an argument about cloning, but an organic clone is still its own individual. It may have the same genes and phenotypes, but its ability to think for itself and to grow for itself differentiates it from its clone. It's intrinsic values is what gives it the natural rights it deserves. The Geth don't have this, thus they don't have any rights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzxOsHTR81Q

Then you don't understand what an AI is. They have the ability to interpret perspectives and events differently, and thus can develop differing opinions and characteristics. Copy/pasting Legion's basic programming would be no different than cloning a person, as you described.
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#48VG_SoldierPosted 6/8/2012 1:44:14 PM
Ah, the...Geth. They're quite the conundrum, no?. I look at them like this; they're deserving of rights and fair respect, but...I just can't bring myself to fully trust them. Organics are ultimately imperfect, but synthetics, like the Geth being near completely absent of the emotions typically associated with meatbags gives me the distinct impression that they'll eventually make a bid for power. A bid that will likely succeed. The Reaper's theory had at least some merit.
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#49DestinPosted 6/8/2012 1:45:45 PM
plasticman13 posted...
I can simply take Legion's programming chip, duplicate it a million times, insert it into a million Geth and create a million Legions.


your understanding of Geth tech is weak. this is not possible. Legions' combination of runtimes were unique and could not be duplicated. this is stated pretty clearly after Rannoch. a Geth isn't a single program or a single chip.

also just because something is organic doesn't mean they have to have emotions.
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#50Retneug(Topic Creator)Posted 6/8/2012 1:46:05 PM
plasticman13 posted...
It's kind of unfair to ask this because Geth aren't human, and what TC is asking is if HUMAN rights should be extended to the Geth. I disagree with that because the Geth are completely different than humans, thus human rights do not apply to them.

Now, if you're talking about rights such as the right to live freely, or NATURAL rights that every living creature has, then I would still say no because they're not organic living creatures. They cannot feel emotion and they cannot feel pain. They're only machines who will only look out for themselves at all costs and will never have proper morales or empathy for other creatures. They're also ruthless, killing without care. Therefore, due to them not having morales, the ability to feel empathy, pain and sorrow, they do not have natural rights.


Natural rights? I wasn't aware that rights had been extended to any entity other than human beings. After all, WE are in charge of what rights should be and who/what they apply to; they're our theoretical construct. Granted, when we actually DO have other sentient organics and robots to apply them to, we should probably switch to a more inclusive name than "human rights"... But for the moment, I use the term "human rights" for two reasons; one, that is the term most people will know and understand the implications of, and two, the question of whether the Geth deserve our rights is the quickest way to determine how people value them.

At the moment, the only entities aside from ourselves that we can apply rights to are animals... And, frankly, they have no rights; not even natural rights. We eat them as we like, we "enslave" them as we like, and even killing them for sport is fair game. Are animals more deserving of having human rights applied to them than the Geth? Less? Equal? I find it an interesting question.

Again, I have to ask whether things like empathy and morals can't be learned. I certainly didn't have either of those things as a baby, nor for a long time afterwards - I cared only about myself, my needs, and my entertainment. The Geth start their existence AT LEAST caring about their own "species", while I can't really say the same for myself as a newborn... I likely cared about other humans to the point where they fed me and kept me alive, and beyond that it was all about me. Fear not, though; I care slightly more about you guys now. 8D
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