Should Geth have Rights? (Spoilers)

#51darknessryPosted 6/8/2012 1:46:15 PM
@plasticman13: There is a side to every story. There is always a opinion. As for the geth they are beings so IMO they should be given a chance and not condemned to a separate isolated area. I'm not saying that they should be fully integrated into society or anything of the sort because isolation keeps from conflict, which keeps from war, which keeps from discrimination and baseless hate.
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#52Vindi89Posted 6/8/2012 1:46:55 PM
plasticman13 posted...

Besides, the Geth don't have any values, nor are they worth any values. I can simply take Legion's programming chip, duplicate it a million times, insert it into a million Geth and create a million Legions. You could form an argument about cloning, but an organic clone is still its own individual. It may have the same genes and phenotypes, but its ability to think for itself and to grow for itself differentiates it from its clone. It's intrinsic values is what gives it the natural rights it deserves. The Geth don't have this, thus they don't have any rights.


They had enough values to stop pursuing the Quarians when they ran from Rannoch. As Legion said, they could not fathom eliminating an entire species. Funny how the Organic Quarians with values couldn't pause even for a moment to consider the ramifications of their actions.

Furthermore, when Legion dies he uploads his information to all Geth. This did not make each Geth Legion now did it? First thing Shepard asks when she saw a Geth was "Legion?" to which that platform said no.

The fallacy of your argument originates with you trying to use our level of tech to explain the limitations of the Geth. You have no proof that you can just copy one Legion and create many like him.

Consider also that the Geth are more Hive Mind than individualistic. They take in experience (data) from each platform and form a consensus.
#53plasticman13Posted 6/8/2012 1:58:33 PM
@Vindi89 That's a good point you made about Legion uploading his information, I forgot about that. But of course I'm going to argue with knowledge about our level of tech. Who knows, maybe in the ME universe the definition of life that darknessry posted is modified. Maybe the world that Bioware created has a society that accepts machines as one of them (heck, they probably do considering Shepard is part synthetic after his reconstruction). But I'm saying that if there were Geth to pop out in our universe currently (which I'm aware I didn't make clear) then I wouldn't consider the Geth to have any rights. In my mind, they don't have any rights because they're not organics. And they don't have any values because they're machines. You could have a different opinion, and that's okay.

@Retneug No no no. Natural rights are not "given" to any creatures. They are rights and laws that every living being has. The right to breathe clean air, the right to grow, the right to live freely. Humans aren't the ones who can give these rights, any living being that is born is given these rights naturally (this is a big argument that animal/environmental rights philosophers use).
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#54DestinPosted 6/8/2012 2:02:55 PM
you live in a fantasy world. nothing has those rights. all of those things are earned.

organics (humans include) deny other organics the right to breath every second of every day.
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#55Retneug(Topic Creator)Posted 6/8/2012 2:34:13 PM
plasticman13 posted...

@Retneug No no no. Natural rights are not "given" to any creatures. They are rights and laws that every living being has. The right to breathe clean air, the right to grow, the right to live freely. Humans aren't the ones who can give these rights, any living being that is born is given these rights naturally (this is a big argument that animal/environmental rights philosophers use).


One human right is that a human shouldn't enslave another human. When a human is born, they might be enslaved during their life; they might not. The point of the right is that it reduces the overall chance of any human being enslaved, because our lawmakers and authority figures will protect our rights. This right has a noticeable influence on our reality.

The natural rights you propose don't have the same effect. Animals regularly end the breathing/growth of other animals to supplement their own growth. Why? Instinct. A lack of the ability to communicate. If they had a legal system, maybe the zebra could sue the lion and natural rights would have an impact. Since that's not the case, they don't, so they may as well not exist at all. There's also the fact that many, many creatures in our world don't actually breathe air... And mental growth doesn't appear to factor in to your "growth" right, though I suppose I could be wrong about that... But then you'd have to explain why, in that case, the Geth wouldn't be eligible for that right.

Finally, every organism lives with some measure of freedom and some measure of control in their life, even if all they have to obey is the laws of physics and their own base urges. I would say that rights mean something as soon as one of the organisms involved is intelligent enough to communicate... And they're the ones who bestow the rights if their counterpart does not share that capability. Humans impose rights upon humans. Humans impose rights upon animals. Humans impose rights on robots... Until robots start fighting for their rights, just as we did (and continue to do).
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#56GoldenSWarriorsPosted 6/8/2012 2:37:08 PM
Retneug posted...
*Spoilers*

Are the Reapers right? Will synthetics just keep rising up and exterminating organics? Or is there a chance for diplomacy; a peace that could last millenia and benefit both species?


Did you play through this game? The only reason the Geth ever hurt a Quarian was because the Quarians attacked them first and they were just fighting back. The Geth didn't ever want to have a war with their creators, but they fought for their survival. I don't know why the Quarians would program the Geth to care about their survival so much, so they must be sentient. And as soon as the Quarians stop attacking the Geth, the Geth stop attacking the Quarians.
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#57Vindi89Posted 6/8/2012 2:37:26 PM
plasticman13 posted...
@Vindi89 That's a good point you made about Legion uploading his information, I forgot about that. But of course I'm going to argue with knowledge about our level of tech. But I'm saying that if there were Geth to pop out in our universe currently (which I'm aware I didn't make clear) then I wouldn't consider the Geth to have any rights. In my mind, they don't have any rights because they're not organics. And they don't have any values because they're machines. You could have a different opinion, and that's okay.



I understood fully that our opinions differ and also you seem like a person with flexible opinions unlike the last guy I debated with (Merc).

Our definition of life is limited to what we've seen and experience here on our own surroundings. I have no doubt that it will be redefined as we move out into the stars. Consider for a moment that humans themselves are a biochemical machine. Does it matter that much if another being comes along isn't made the same way we are? To discount the possibility would be considered origin essential-ism.
#58DestinPosted 6/8/2012 2:42:40 PM
GoldenSWarriors posted...
I don't know why the Quarians would program the Geth to care about their survival so much, so they must be sentient.


they didn't program them to care about survival. they programmed them with the ability to network and the ability to learn so that they would complete their tasks more effectively.

one of the first things they learned was that they want to keep learning and being denied that ability is not something they found acceptable.
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#59Retneug(Topic Creator)Posted 6/8/2012 2:47:27 PM
GoldenSWarriors posted...
Retneug posted...
*Spoilers*

Are the Reapers right? Will synthetics just keep rising up and exterminating organics? Or is there a chance for diplomacy; a peace that could last millenia and benefit both species?


Did you play through this game? The only reason the Geth ever hurt a Quarian was because the Quarians attacked them first and they were just fighting back. The Geth didn't ever want to have a war with their creators, but they fought for their survival. I don't know why the Quarians would program the Geth to care about their survival so much, so they must be sentient. And as soon as the Quarians stop attacking the Geth, the Geth stop attacking the Quarians.


If you skim a few of my posts in this thread, you'll see that I share your beliefs.

I intentionally built the OP to play devil's advocate and entice posters with differing views on the Geth to jump in and discuss.
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#60SociopathixPosted 6/8/2012 2:54:21 PM
Robots have no rights.

F*** the geth, other then legion every other geth has shot am me. I won't love the 'race' because one is cool. They are souless machines built for our convenience.
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