Why people dislike Synthesis very much? *spoilers*

#251billygotenPosted 4/3/2013 2:12:56 PM
Now I'll say, yes, I think it's possible, that telepathic-type communication has also been shown in the series, that the combination of synthetics and organics to achieve certain ends is also a huge repeating theme of the series, especially the ending, and that the ending literally says one of the ways Synthesis would end conflict is because it allows for synthetics to understand organics. That's literally lifted directly from the ending. How would that purpose be achieved? We don't know. It doesn't elaborate. Could it be because somehow the Synthesis wave did exactly what the ending says it's supposed to do in this way and enhances understanding? I say maybe. You say no. Hm...

Furthermore, if you watch the characters in the ending, they don't seem to be brainwashed. They walk and act like they normally do. That doesn't prove anything, certainly, but my point is if you look at something with an expectation, you can easily claim it's "evidence".

Synthesis seems more like, if you tried to bake a cake, you no longer have the option of "without any prior skill or knowledge," trial and error.

It seems more like that way to you. Which is fine. But I don't see that in the ending and I really don't know where people are getting that from.

And since Synthesis CLEARLY applies it's physical change to all life in the galaxy, as shown by the circuit patterns on the leaves, can you even eat eggs anymore?

Don't know. It doesn't say, so it's all speculative. Also brings up questions of what is alive, because an unfertilized egg while organic isn't a living being, but that's a whole different discussion really.

Also, germs

The game doesn't show any evidence that something smaller than a plant was affected. We can only assume that. In any event, again, not sure. Perhaps understanding only applies between minds. Perhaps there's something in addition to understanding, some way to feel non-sentient but living things. We have nothing to go on here.

Occam's is the only way we can really dictate this discussion.

Eh, not really. Occam's razor could be used to make a case for what's more justifiable, but it isn't a law (what's simpler may be more justifiable, but that doesn't mean it is). In any event, I'm not going into that here.

Why else would [Wreav] change besides synthesis?

The answer actually is very simple. Simpler than brainwashing, actually, imo. He changed his mind.

Because ... the wave still changed their mind.

Again, that's making an assumption that's not there! Synthesis didn't necessarily change his mind. It could have provided him with more information and understanding which caused him to make the decision himself. The video on baking a cake didn't change your mind for you. It gave you more information and you changed your mind based on that information. Not brainwashing.
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#252billygotenPosted 4/3/2013 2:15:14 PM
If someones way of thinking is changed by an outside source that they are not aware of

Who's to say he isn't aware of it? Who's to say his way of thinking is changed by the outside and not by himself? People change their minds all the time. Why? Brainwashing? Not necessarily.

Mind-altering is just as immoral as brain-washing.

Then you should be leading the charge against psychologists that make their patients take medication for chemical imbalances.

But regardless, you don't know his mind was altered. It could have only been his brain's capabilities were enhanced and he was given a communication path of some sort to other beings, which isn't brainwashing.

Not to mention forcing a physical change on everyone with the greenness and circuits.

Which is a huge problem with Synthesis as I've mentioned. But still, it's Shepard doing his/her best and what can you do in that situation? There are only 4 choices. Is destroy better? The Geth would like a word. Control? Was TIM right all along? Still, remember the Reapers are sentient beings too, so is the ending that actually DOES involve brainwashing better? Choosing none of the above certainly isn't better. It's a tough problem, and trying to say it's the lesser of all evils doesn't make it right, but that's all we got.

Just because it "may not be bad" doesn't make it ethically correct.

True, but the same can be said of all endings.

Shepard doesn't know everyone in the galaxy he is doing this to, so it's still wrong.

My scenario didn't involve what usually happens. Also, the same can be said of the other endings too.

Except Synthesis doesn't do what you describe. It fundamentally rewrites people's minds because a faulty AI says peace is impossible otherwise.

No matter how many times you pretend like the game shows this, it doesn't. Some support for what you're acting like is true would be very nice.

Synthesis effectively takes free will away. It's surprising how many pro-synthesis people don't realize they sound like the Templars in Assassin's Creed.

They sound NOTHING like Templars because NO ONE is saying mind control is for the greater good. The reality is that Synthesis does not state or imply mind control, altering, or brainwashing AT ALL IN ANY WAY. You're just assuming it does.

It's basically the same choice. Take free-will away for the sake of peace. I'd rather die free than live as a slave.
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---The defib is a more useful weapon at range than either T1 shotty. - kenmorr23---
#253SageOfLifePosted 4/3/2013 2:19:57 PM
There is no evidence of any telepathy or empathy in the synthesis ending. Any time it's been seen previously it involves at least one person from a species that has it normally. Claiming that grafting nano-machines into people's cells somehow provides a new galaxy wide telepathy is outright making things up and a much bigger leap than a galaxy wide mindrape which is a logical extension of the abilities of the being offering synthesis in the first place. And even if there were telepathy, it wouldn't change the actions of people who are truly rotten, and yet the implication is that it does.
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#254SinisterSamuraiPosted 4/3/2013 7:37:06 PM
billygoten posted...
Rather, it would provide him [Wreav] with more information with which to make a better decision.

Why do you think it's a better decision for an honor-based warrior culture not to go to war? Are you certain you don't have a cultural bias?

Synthesis seems more like, if you tried to bake a cake, you no longer have the option of "without any prior skill or knowledge," trial and error.

It seems more like that way to you. Which is fine. But I don't see that in the ending and I really don't know where people are getting that from.


Because people, humans or otherwise, are capable of making mistakes. Mistakes lead to war just as often as deliberate intention.

And since Synthesis CLEARLY applies it's physical change to all life in the galaxy, as shown by the circuit patterns on the leaves, can you even eat eggs anymore?

Don't know. It doesn't say, so it's all speculative. Also brings up questions of what is alive, because an unfertilized egg while organic isn't a living being, but that's a whole different discussion really.

I wasn't trying to get into whether or not "eggs" are alive. Replace Eggs with Salad. Pork. Beef. Fish. Apples. In fact, speculate on what they would be able to eat. I don't want to understand my food, I want to eat it. And I want my cookies to be soft, not circuit-metal crunchy. If I have to remove the circuit boards, has synthesis denied me the pleasure of hunting and eating food unaided?

Also, auto-telepathy is terrible, too. I enjoy secrets.
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#255Ryan-06Posted 4/3/2013 7:49:40 PM
If this hits 500, I will turn into a Husk!
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#256edgecrusher02Posted 4/3/2013 9:51:09 PM
Ryan-06 posted...
If this hits 500, I will turn into a Husk!


i dont think it will get that far. its to the point now where its two sides saying the exact same thing to each other. people think differently. agree to disagree is what should happen now. its why i have decided to stop commenting and ignore anyone who is belligerent about it. still though, its sometimes fun to read.
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#257severialityPosted 4/3/2013 9:51:13 PM
Exactly, brainwashing argument aside, it's completely an invasion of privacy. And now that I understand cows and apples, I see they don't want to die. Alas, I will just wither away.

It says all organics. Trees are organic. Animals are organic. The destroy wave wiped out electronics, not just sentient Reapers and Geth. The synthesis wave would be equally thorough.

And if you say it only applies to sentients, what about the precursors to sentient beings? We weren't just placed as sentient beings, we evolved that way. Do we have to throw a new guy in the pit every couple millennium when a new species emerges?

An ending with more ethical concerns, controversy, and not well thought-out material is a bad ending. Synthesis is immoral, permanent, and brings up more problems than it's worth.
#258SageOfLifePosted 4/3/2013 9:53:49 PM
edgecrusher02 posted...
Ryan-06 posted...
If this hits 500, I will turn into a Husk!


i dont think it will get that far. its to the point now where its two sides saying the exact same thing to each other. people think differently. agree to disagree is what should happen now. its why i have decided to stop commenting and ignore anyone who is belligerent about it. still though, its sometimes fun to read.


"Agree to disagree is just some stupid thing people resort to when they run out of arguments and want to save face.
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There's no box! There never was!
#259severialityPosted 4/3/2013 9:59:33 PM
billygoten posted...
If someones way of thinking is changed by an outside source that they are not aware of

Who's to say he isn't aware of it? Who's to say his way of thinking is changed by the outside and not by himself? People change their minds all the time. Why? Brainwashing? Not necessarily.

Mind-altering is just as immoral as brain-washing.

Then you should be leading the charge against psychologists that make their patients take medication for chemical imbalances.

But regardless, you don't know his mind was altered. It could have only been his brain's capabilities were enhanced and he was given a communication path of some sort to other beings, which isn't brainwashing.

Not to mention forcing a physical change on everyone with the greenness and circuits.

Which is a huge problem with Synthesis as I've mentioned. But still, it's Shepard doing his/her best and what can you do in that situation? There are only 4 choices. Is destroy better? The Geth would like a word. Control? Was TIM right all along? Still, remember the Reapers are sentient beings too, so is the ending that actually DOES involve brainwashing better? Choosing none of the above certainly isn't better. It's a tough problem, and trying to say it's the lesser of all evils doesn't make it right, but that's all we got.

Just because it "may not be bad" doesn't make it ethically correct.

True, but the same can be said of all endings.

Shepard doesn't know everyone in the galaxy he is doing this to, so it's still wrong.

My scenario didn't involve what usually happens. Also, the same can be said of the other endings too.

Except Synthesis doesn't do what you describe. It fundamentally rewrites people's minds because a faulty AI says peace is impossible otherwise.

No matter how many times you pretend like the game shows this, it doesn't. Some support for what you're acting like is true would be very nice.

Synthesis effectively takes free will away. It's surprising how many pro-synthesis people don't realize they sound like the Templars in Assassin's Creed.

They sound NOTHING like Templars because NO ONE is saying mind control is for the greater good. The reality is that Synthesis does not state or imply mind control, altering, or brainwashing AT ALL IN ANY WAY. You're just assuming it does.

It's basically the same choice. Take free-will away for the sake of peace. I'd rather die free than live as a slave.


Alright, let me respond to a few of these. If his brain is enhanced/new pathways formed, that's altering his mind/brain. Without consent. You can't say it happens without a fundamental change there. Psychologists can only make their patients take medicine if they are a direct harm to themselves or others. Wreav is neither, because Shepard isn't a psychologist, and has no idea what Wreav's intentions are.

And the galaxy stands united on destroying the Reapers, you gain allies to kill the Reapers all game. That can't be said for synthesis or control. Literally doing anything besides destroy is betraying the trust of the people who made the entire thing possible. Shep controlling the universe, or bringing some change to everyone's minds is completely immoral. No one stated they were willing to do that to stop the Reapers. They all were willing to die to stop the Reapers.
#260gwandePosted 4/4/2013 1:12:45 AM
You spend the game unifying diverse groups to stop an enemy. Then for victory you take away all the diversity.

You just put an end to a organic/synthetic conflict and say "maybe organics and synthetics will never coexist"

Just a couple of many reasons.

Mainly because it's f***ing dumb.
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