Plot Holes, or Ending Topic Too: Electric Boogaloo

#11Ernst_JungerPosted 11/17/2013 9:41:47 PM
Here's a basic one: If you're going to wipe out life on select planets, why send giant robots shooting laser beams?

Use gravitational fields to slam asteroids into home planets. Result: Mass death, followed by nuclear winter. The survivors, if any, revert to a lifestyle that predates space flight and advanced technology. If you destroy enough nodes on any network, the network collapses.

Other colonies and planets would be cut off from contact and resources. More meteorites and asteroids.

Or why not hit these planets with biological weapons? The Reapers would have aerosolized technology that could coat entire planets, as an advanced Type II civilization. Or, for Earth, park enough Reapers between the moon and Earth and let tidal waves take down most of civilization. The options are endless.

Oh wait, no game.
#12TallWhiteNinjaPosted 11/17/2013 10:18:14 PM
I've always wondered why the Reapers took their sweet time taking the Citadel in this cycle. I mean, I know they lose the element of surprise the trap usually grants, but the Citadel is still the seat of galactic government and the center of the relay network: it should still have been a pretty high-priority target. They take it post-Cronos Station without any apparent trouble, so I've always wondered why they never bothered with it earlier (I know the Illusive Man "helped," but surely they could have used any number of indoctrinated agents if they needed an insider).
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#13NafzgerPosted 11/18/2013 4:32:09 AM
How exactly did he help, by the way? Did he just call Harbinger and say "hey you know that big dumb thing they're building? Well, the Citadel is what powers it. You'll probably want to go get it...btw can I hitch a ride to the Citadel? I need to get up to the roof."
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#14TemplariShadowPosted 11/18/2013 6:44:52 AM
Nafzger posted...
How exactly did he help, by the way? Did he just call Harbinger and say "hey you know that big dumb thing they're building? Well, the Citadel is what powers it. You'll probably want to go get it...btw can I hitch a ride to the Citadel? I need to get up to the roof."


With Martin Sheen's voice. Heehee.
#15edgecrusher02Posted 11/18/2013 8:38:41 AM(edited)
I wondered about much of this stuff early on as well. However, at this point I think the fact that the Crucible's origins are unknown, that it "just happens" to dock and work in conjunction with the Citadel and that its design asks for the Catalyst by name, is just "too convenient" if you will. To me this says that logically, "whoever" designed it was fully aware of what the Citadel was truly capable of. Which then says to me that there are only two possibilities for that. The Leviathan, or the Catalyst itself. Then when both are asked about the Crucible they dodge the question and give a generic response. So we have two sources, both with the ability to possess the minds of organic life forms, and they both have more than a vested interest in what happens next. Both of whom I think would hide that from Shepard. To me, this says that they have both been attempting to steer things in a direction that gets them what they want. I think the Catalyst wants synthesis. What the Leviathan would want I am not 100% on though.

Then you have Vendetta talk about how many patterns repeat themselves as a response to Javik talking about how the Protheans also had a splinter group that thought controlling the Reapers was better than destroying them. If I had to guess, I'd say that this potentially implies that the Leviathan have been more active in this than they tell Shepard. For example, if the Leviathan wanted to control the Reapers, the implications of that would be huge.

I just can't hep but feel that there is more, even if the writers just wanted us to speculate on what that more is.
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"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive." - Albert Einstein
#16CaelestinePosted 11/18/2013 9:31:34 AM
TimeShinigami posted...
ozzyman314 posted...
Didn't the Catalyst say that they(Reapers) Believed that the concept of the Cruciable had been eradicated?


"We had noticed this design a few Cycles ago, though none had been able to complete it..."

Starbrat also states that they knew who invented the design, which means it wasn't the Leviathans who came up with the design... Which means, once again, how would anyone know to use the Citadel as the Catalyst, since none had ever been able to prevent it from being captured immediately by the Reapers (until Shep, anyways)?


Just want to add that Catalyst/Reaper had a really spotty record of containing knowledge of the reaping cycles from passing down. I mean, there is a bloody living prothean (Javik). Or the beacon on Ilos. And the Liara's beacon for refused ending. So, it is not that big of a stretch that the design of the crucible got pass down. I suppose it was originally something came up by a pre-cursor race (before the prothean) who has an even better understanding of the technology of Citadel and Mass relay than the prothean.
#17TallWhiteNinjaPosted 11/18/2013 5:13:25 PM
edgecrusher02 posted...
. To me, this says that they have both been attempting to steer things in a direction that gets them what they want. I think the Catalyst wants synthesis.


To me, that's pretty strongly implied, especially in the conversation with the Leviathan. Beyond the whole "harvest organics before they make synthetics that wipe them out" thing, I think the true purpose behind the cycles is to either steer or speed up evolution until organics are "ready" for synthesis (see the talk about "speeding the time between cycles for efficiency" and evolution being the Intelligence’s "tool.") Someone actually reaching the Intelligence's chamber is, apparently, the marker for when galactic life is "ready." The Leviathans just seemed more concerned with simple survival than anything else, only agreeing to join the fight when Shepard brought the Reapers to their doorstep.

Now, why the device used to implement the Intelligence's solution also comes with "**** you, die" and "**** you, your toys are mine" buttons is another issue. Also, it is yet another mark against the creepy green eyes ending (I guess you can argue the Catalyst's ends weren't as awful as his means...but, still).
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Either the worst great player or the best horrible player you'll ever meet.
#18edgecrusher02Posted 11/21/2013 8:13:06 AM
TallWhiteNinja posted...
edgecrusher02 posted...
. To me, this says that they have both been attempting to steer things in a direction that gets them what they want. I think the Catalyst wants synthesis.


To me, that's pretty strongly implied, especially in the conversation with the Leviathan. Beyond the whole "harvest organics before they make synthetics that wipe them out" thing, I think the true purpose behind the cycles is to either steer or speed up evolution until organics are "ready" for synthesis (see the talk about "speeding the time between cycles for efficiency" and evolution being the Intelligence’s "tool.") Someone actually reaching the Intelligence's chamber is, apparently, the marker for when galactic life is "ready." The Leviathans just seemed more concerned with simple survival than anything else, only agreeing to join the fight when Shepard brought the Reapers to their doorstep.

Now, why the device used to implement the Intelligence's solution also comes with "**** you, die" and "**** you, your toys are mine" buttons is another issue. Also, it is yet another mark against the creepy green eyes ending (I guess you can argue the Catalyst's ends weren't as awful as his means...but, still).



I agree for the most part. And to me it seems that to the Catalyst doesn't even consider any sort of justification for what it's doing. And why would it? It would be much more guided by logic than any sort of emotion. The dialogue is all there to support this as well, especially the line the Leviathan DLC adds to the ending when the Catalyst is confronted about Shepard having met with them. It is just solving a problem it was created to solve.

The Catalyst also says that it's creators failed to recognize that they are part of the problem they created it to solve. What is the problem? That organics reach a point in which they create synthetic life that surpasses them. It even goes into why that is a problem. So what does that make the Catalyst? Part of the problem, whether it realizes it or not. It is just a machine an organic species made for the very reason it just gave us. They are both part of the problem. The entire scenario is just another result of the problem because the Leviathan building the Catalyst wasn't anything different. To me this speaks volumes for the "conflict" as it's presented to us, the viewers.
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"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive." - Albert Einstein