Support classes and you - an analysis and discussion

#1n0matterPosted 2/10/2011 12:23:27 PM
So far I have:

Bard = Buff+Heals+Some Debuff

Archon = Buff/Debuff

Warlord = Buff/Debuff

Dominator = CC/Debuff

Chloromancer = Heals/DPS

Justica = Heals/DPS

Is that all of them? I want to play a support class I just can't figure out which niche I want to fill. So far Bards seem to be the ultimate in support classes but Archons are serious contenders if one wanted to go mage instead of rogue. Any other input/additions/etc. to what I have?
#2cyborg99sreturnPosted 2/10/2011 12:28:20 PM
Chloro is a healing soul. Not a support soul. The intent is for it to be a healer, so please stop labeling it as something other than that.
And can someone explain to me why people think Justicar is a healing soul? It's a tanking soul. Just because it has an ability to slightly boost slight heals(Mein of Honor) doesn't make it capable of being considered to be a healer.
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#3n0matter(Topic Creator)Posted 2/10/2011 12:42:09 PM
There are spells/talents for both Chloros and Justicars that are designed specifically to increase the healing of other group healers. I'm not entirely sold on Chloros main-healing or not because I've never seen or tried a deep chloro build and no one has seen end game yet. But they don't perform nearly as well as some of the Cleric classes and because they have some prominant dps abilities as well as heal and support heals abilities I labeled them a support class.
#4cyborg99sreturnPosted 2/10/2011 12:47:38 PM
But they don't perform nearly as well as some of the Cleric classes

That's fine, I can completely understand your point of view on that, but their intent is to be a Mage soul that can heal.

There are spells/talents for Justicars that are designed specifically to increase the healing of other group healers.

Yes, and they do this while tanking.
In fact, what are you talking about in this scenario?
In fact, I only see Virtue, the 26 point spell, and Reparation, a Talent that makes 25% of Life damage AoE heal, supporting this conclusion(and even then, Reparation is just an AoE heal).

I really want to understand where you're coming from on this.
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#5DarkDruidSSPosted 2/10/2011 12:49:53 PM
Currently Chloromancers can heal just as well as cleric. Since a Chloromancer does damage to heal they also are doing significant damage that a main healing build cleric can not do. That doesn't make the class a support role. Chloromancer is very much a main healer.

Justicar is very much intended to be a cleric tank. They do get some healing abilities through convictions, but they are still a tank.
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#6KraidePosted 2/10/2011 1:14:58 PM

From: cyborg99sreturn | #004
There are spells/talents for Justicars that are designed specifically to increase the healing of other group healers.

Yes, and they do this while tanking.
In fact, what are you talking about in this scenario?
In fact, I only see Virtue, the 26 point spell, and Reparation, a Talent that makes 25% of Life damage AoE heal, supporting this conclusion(and even then, Reparation is just an AoE heal).

I really want to understand where you're coming from on this.


I'm not sure you and I were playing the same Justicar in beta 6.

If you buff yourself with Mien of Honor, put on a 2h, put Righteous Mandate on another character tanking, just Salvation (after your overheal, of course) and Reparation does some fairly consistent and decent healing on both you and that character. In fact, every Doctrine other than the one that requires a shield is a healing spell, one self-heal, one AoE-heal, and one tank-heal (assuming you aren't the tank and made the tank the target of your Righteous Mandate, which if you are not the tank you certainly did).

And of course there is Virtue, which you indeed noted does increase the power of your own (and other party members) heals.

If you are choosing to not use it as a tank (and honestly, there are as many healing abilities for Justicar as there is tanking ones), than you would be using it as a support class. Throw it with Shaman and a no-point Druid (just for the Faerie) and you can pretty much be solid pure-DPS and be putting out solid healing while not actually actively doing so.
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#7cyborg99sreturnPosted 2/10/2011 1:23:18 PM(edited)
I'm not sure you and I were playing the same Justicar in beta 6.

Or just playing it much differently. Can you give me an example build, Kraide?
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html
Use this if you would, please.

EDIT: I'm asking for an example build, because I don't know how far you mean to go down Justicar or Shaman. You can't go very far down Justicar without taking the damage reduction or shield-using Talents
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The metal blinds the eye of yet another lost existence...
#8KraidePosted 2/10/2011 2:37:33 PM
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00nra.Ex.vucoVhodzz

Here's an example for level 35 (max beta 6 level).

You can do this build and have absolutely no shield points spent. The damage reduction ones are fine: the less damage (including AoE damage) means your Salvation can heal you less and your Righteous Mandate target is healed for more. Since you won't have the ability to use your convictions for Precept of Refuge, it will mostly be used for healing your your tank (Doctrine of Righteousness) and the party (Doctrine of Loyalty). The Shaman spells are simply to increase your melee damage and (which will increase your Salvation and Reparation healing). You will not, for the most part, be using Shaman attacks because they give reduced Salvation and Reparation effects.

Druid is there because the faerie can cast hots with no points spent, further increasing healing abilities without having to actively heal. You also spend enough points in Shaman to swap temporarily to a mana regen Vengeance from a DPS one if you get low. Combining it with a 5-hit Even Justice from Justicar will both do decent healing to both your Righteous Mandate target and your party.

You will probably not pull out as much healing as a pure healer Cleric, but I would definitely not ever say that it is too little to be "support" while doing decent enough damage. At least until the min-maxers start making it so.

With more levels, it might be worthwhile to sacrifice some points into using a shield (Precept of Refuge is not actually a bad damage ability anyway) to get Celerity, a 10 percent melee and casting haste aura, which would allow such a build to be even further useful for support. In fact, take the plunge a bit further at a higher level to get the 44 points cooldown ability and you have a further support class, much like the WoW shaman equivalent but with healing that is passive while you do your damage.
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"I am allowed double standards. You are not"
-my ex
#9KraidePosted 2/10/2011 2:51:26 PM(edited)
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00nra.xcb.Ehoqiu.x

Although, looking at the same three souls gives a good tanking build for level 35 as well, with some health increases and damage reduction from all trees, all the T3 tanking goodies from Justicar, as well as Glacial Shield AND Shield of the Oak from the non-Justicar souls.

Interesting that the talents and abilities are varied enough that one can look at the same souls in different ways.
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"I am allowed double standards. You are not"
-my ex
#10Velocitas8Posted 2/10/2011 5:40:09 PM

I really like the Justicar/Shaman combo as a Melee DPS/Healer.

I've been playing around with the idea of trying a build like this:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00dnr.xxk.EtdoMzshk.xucomhoz

Shaman/Justicar/Inquisitor. You would of course be using a 2-hander..the aim is to deal good damage to in turn provide group healing.

Crit is a big aspect of the build. Shaman and Inquisitor EACH have 5-point talents that make your criticals (both damage/healing) 20% more effective. Shaman also has the 5% melee crit rate talent, and Inquis has a 3% ability crit rate buff (plus an endurance boost, which helps a meleer.) The presence of both Crit Rate AND Crit Effectiveness low in the Inquisitor tree makes it a better choice than Druid, imo. Then there's the talents that proc when you LAND a crit: Light Makes Right (generates an extra Judgement), Lust For Blood (30% damage boost on the next melee *ABILITY* used), and Endless Winter (free mana regeneration!)

A few points in Inquisitor also gives you consistent means with which to generate Judgements at range (you even get an instant-cast) with its life-based spells. There will certainly be situations in which you will not be able to get into melee range in PvE and PvP, and these Inquis abilities will allow you to remain of use to your group at those times. You won't be doing as much damage at range, but can you still generate Judgements and heal.

By the way, any gear that boosts life damage will benefit both Justicar and Inquisitor abilities, so there's that.

Shaman talents that boost Shaman-specific attack abilities are ignored with the assumption that you will be using Justicar attack abilities for maximum healing rate. The exception is Malestrom, partly because it's awesome, and partly because you must take *something* at that point in the tree or you cannot proceed to the next tier. There really isn't any better choice.

Favored of The Valnir in the Shaman tree is taken with the hope that it also boosts overhealing, which would make Righteous Mandate that much better.

It looks strange at first, but everything fits together pretty nicely IMO.