Tokugawa specialty is diplomatic relations, yet everyone hates me.

#1myzz7Posted 4/23/2011 7:16:48 AM
Right off the bat, Saito always takes the Owari province. From then on I wait years for the Imagawa to attack me and it doesn't come. Then somehow, Hojo attacks Imagawa and I finally have an opportunity to take Izu with the gold mine, then Oda comes back and I take another piece of land near kyoto via transporting my troops on seas. Luckily for me no one likes Oda and they had no allies, it goes smoothly. Hattori grows huge and takes out saito and neighbors me, then after having four half stacks of decent troops, my upkeep is going to dwindle my economy. So I strike out at Imagawa since I'm tired of waiting and then everyone around me declares war on me. And not just Imagawa allies, but Hattori aswell and this huge clan with 8 provinces near Date lands.

What the hell is this? Now I have to do combat on three different fronts and hope no one attacks me trade ships that are far off near Kyushu. Because if they do, I can't send ample reinforcements due to the fact that it takes 6 turns to get over there.
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"Worth killing for, worth dying for, worth going to hell for." Marv
#2Megotaku77Posted 4/23/2011 4:32:36 PM

Starting off as the Tokugawa is hard. Historically, Tokugawa turned against Imagawa and allied with the Oda. Basically, the game sets you up to necessarily turn you against the Imagawa. You're going to take a diplomatic hit, so what I typically do is attack the Imagawa as early as possible when they are weakest, and use the natural terrain advantage to survive the windfall until my diplomatic relations build back up. The Takeda clan is going to be the biggest threat by far, but the game has a lot of history built up behind it so if you research the history of the Sengoku Jidai period you can predict how certain clans will behave.

Takeda for example is the most honorable of the old clans, if you ally with them, or in many cases simply form a trade with them, you will -never- be attacked by them. Breaking treaties is dishonorable and the only way they'll turn against you is if one of their diplomatic allies uses their influence to force them into a conflict with you or put an embargo on you. If you can use Takeda's honor against them. Uesegi Kenshin and Takeda Kenshin have an enormous long-standing rivalry in history, so if you leave both of them be, they WILL attack each other eventually. That's something you have to prepare for if you're playing the Uesegi clan as well. The Hojo are at an incredible disadvantage geographically, so a lot of times the Satomi clan or Yoshi clan will trap them in conflict, or kill them outright.

So, if you can take out the Imagawa clan and play Takeda against Uesegi you'll be able to spend 15+ years in perpetual peace free to expand on other territories. Really, knowing your history makes diplomacy incredibly easy. Who will attack me? The Date clan. They're tyrannical jerks who only care about power. If you know anything, know the Date clan will attack you the first chance they get.

#3SwagnificentPosted 4/23/2011 4:56:07 PM
It's been said before, you have to attack the Imagawa indirectly. Ninja sabotaging their farmlands, monks inciting riots, etc. Breaking their vassalage by outright attacking them is the hard way, compared to the other, more subtle ways to break them down.
#4mareoPosted 4/23/2011 5:50:44 PM(edited)
Start as a vassal of Imagawa sucks. If you rebel against your master you are breaking a treaty and get a -50 hit to diplomacy that effectively cancels you diplomatic bonus. Depending on how good or bad are your diplomatic relations it "can" make that everyone hate you. You can try to get rid of Imagawa with rebellions ASAP. Is the usual option for eliminate something in our way without break a treaty and lose honor, even if everyone suspect what it is really going on.

Open the Diplomatic screen and hover the pointer on every Clan one by one for see a list of things. Everything in the list like alliances, marriages, trade, gifts, your expansionist conquests, Realm Divide, etc... have a + or a - affecting your Diplomatic relations, nothing come out of the blue. Everything has a reasonable explanation.
#5SirHaxALoTPosted 4/23/2011 5:18:25 PM
I stayed as their vassal until I got RD. Was awesome.

Challenging, time consuming, but awesome.
#6mareoPosted 4/23/2011 5:39:48 PM
SirHaxALoT posted...
I stayed as their vassal until I got RD. Was awesome.

Challenging, time consuming, but awesome.


Well, that remember me the three famous senryu:

Oda Nobunaga: If the cuckoo does not sing, kill it

Toyotomi Hideyoshi: If the cuckoo does not sing, coax it.

Tokugawa Ieyasu: If the cuckoo does not sing, wait for it.
#7nesrtkfanPosted 4/24/2011 10:05:25 AM
if you cant get owari in the first few turns as tokugawa, it's going to be much harder to play as them.

trick is to to defend against oda instead of attacking. they will retreat into their castle, then when saito's turn comes up, they won't win the siege. then you mop up on turn 2.

bribing the oda stack is going to help, as well as getting marriages with kiso and saito. sell military access to imagawa and let him betray you. happens real fast on legendary