How is the Golden Sun series?

#51WestbrickIIIPosted 1/24/2013 8:20:03 PM
Wariofanatic posted...
WestbrickIII posted...
Oh, is this conversation turning in the "All views are opinions and consequently can't be justified, argued for, or supplemented with evidence" direction? Unfortunate, but unsurprising from GS apologists.


So... in other words... you're just mad cause everyone doesn't hate the game like you do?


I'm "mad" that you're refusing to provide any justification for the game you love. If it's as good as you believe it to be, it should hold up under scrutiny.
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The only thing more consistent than the Pats beating the Texans is my mother's regret she survived childbirth, knowing she spawned a welcher
#52WariofanaticPosted 1/25/2013 8:31:28 AM
Seriously? Then maybe don't act like a troll or bad poster then? I mean, who responds to a post with a simple "false" or "OH NO IT ISN'T! IT'S THE SAME" to a longer post like that? Like you second post was fine and I will agree that the game is far from perfect, but it obviously isn't terrible either. Also, I never directly called anybody a troll, but I am close to calling WestbrickIII one since he ignores my posts and says "you still haven't said how the game is good." while the whole time I've given examples as to why it is a decent RPG and if you look you'll notice that the whole time I've been trying to say that the first 2 were much, much better than the crap we got in Dark Dawn and NOT trying to prove that "my" game, as you call it for some damn reason, is "perfect".

Also, this is the post(er) that the JPG was posted towards:

Drgonbxcross posted...

l0l.

Are your jimmies rustled?

[X} yes
[ ] no
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My final video~ :(
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#53Delirious_BeardPosted 1/25/2013 8:35:17 AM
You haven't given any reasons though. Certainly not for the story at least.
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#54WariofanaticPosted 1/25/2013 8:43:17 AM(edited)
This was all that was needed to describe the story in the third one: and story that is almost the same exact thing from the first two with the character all being the son or daughter of the previous hero's or protagonist.

Basically my take on the first game:

Pros

+ The world map is nicely designed and large enough to make it great.
+ The graphics are nice.
+ Motoi Sakuraba rarely disappoints with his excellent music.
+ Battles are fast-paced and fun to watch..
+ The dungeons are laid out intelligently making them neither too hard or too easy - if you want hard puzzles get a game made for puzzle solving!

Cons

- The story is too cliched.
- There is too much of it at times.
- Battle strategies aren't particularly deep.
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My final video~ :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHRKUzd6KI&feature=youtu.be
#55WestbrickIIIPosted 1/25/2013 9:36:37 AM
Wariofanatic posted...
Also, I never directly called anybody a troll, but I am close to calling WestbrickIII one since he ignores my posts and says "you still haven't said how the game is good." while the whole time I've given examples as to why it is a decent RPG


You were providing generalities; I was hoping for more specifics.

Basically my take on the first game:

Pros

+ The world map is nicely designed and large enough to make it great.
+ The graphics are nice.
+ Motoi Sakuraba rarely disappoints with his excellent music.
+ Battles are fast-paced and fun to watch..
+ The dungeons are laid out intelligently making them neither too hard or too easy - if you want hard puzzles get a game made for puzzle solving!

Cons

- The story is too cliched.
- There is too much of it at times.
- Battle strategies aren't particularly deep.


These are all pretty general, but I can respond to the positive points:

-...is this a serious argument? Whatever you feel is important, I suppose.

-The graphics are fine technically, but the style itself is very love-and-hate. I don't happen to mind them, but it's worth mentioning.

-Music's good.

-The battles are full of sparks and color, but "fast-paced" sort of depends. The Djinn summons take quite a while to play out at the higher levels. Either way, GS's battle mechanics are bland beyond belief and lend no room to real strategy, so at best it's a case of style over substance. Hardly a positive.

-No one in their right mind would consider the puzzle design "not too easy." The difficulty is a joke. Not only are the puzzles supremely simple to figure out, they're also incredibly repetitive -- move statue, push log, etc.


What you're arguing here is that GS is a good game because a) it looks and sounds nice, b) the world map is big (??), and c) the battles are flashy. On the flip side, here's a list of negatives, with a few additions:

-The story is completely and utterly cliched.
-There is too much of it at times (i.e. the most verbose jRPG in history)
-Battle strategies are mindless
-The writing, in addition to being verbose, is badly written
-The plot is filled with numerous holes
-The character development is nonexistent
-The dungeon puzzles manage to be both easy and uninspired
-The narrative often lacks a sense of direction
-Absolutely no challenge whatsoever

Even if we're generous and say that all the positives you made were genuine, this is still a terrible series on balance.
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The only thing more consistent than the Pats beating the Texans is my mother's regret she survived childbirth, knowing she spawned a welcher
#56WariofanaticPosted 1/25/2013 11:12:59 AM
-...is this a serious argument? Whatever you feel is important, I suppose.

Yes, it is. If you play an RPG with a world that is poorly designed then it can be a major pain to get around it. Whether it is just too small or the villages and other locations that you must get to are so out of place can be the difference in the game being good and bad.

-The graphics are fine technically, but the style itself is very love-and-hate. I don't happen to mind them, but it's worth mentioning.


I agree with this.

-The battles are full of sparks and color, but "fast-paced" sort of depends. The Djinn summons take quite a while to play out at the higher levels. Either way, GS's battle mechanics are bland beyond belief and lend no room to real strategy, so at best it's a case of style over substance. Hardly a positive.

I could be wrong, but I'm almost positive that you can skip the Djinn summons animations. Either way the battle mechanics are a lot like the graphics... you either love them or hate them.

-No one in their right mind would consider the puzzle design "not too easy." The difficulty is a joke. Not only are the puzzles supremely simple to figure out, they're also incredibly repetitive -- move statue, push log, etc.

Not all of them are like this. Some of the puzzles within the towers are other important places were actually arranged in a way that made you have to think, but if we are talking about Dark Dawn then I completely agree. In that game there was not a single puzzle in that game that made you think about them.

-The story is completely and utterly cliched.
-There is too much of it at times (i.e. the most verbose jRPG in history)
-Battle strategies are mindless
-The writing, in addition to being verbose, is badly written
-The plot is filled with numerous holes
-The character development is nonexistent
-The dungeon puzzles manage to be both easy and uninspired
-The narrative often lacks a sense of direction
-Absolutely no challenge whatsoever


Agree'd with most of this. However, when is an RPG not terribly cliched? While they may not be as bad as Golden sun they usually go along the lines of "Stop the dread-fiend that is trying to take over the world!", or "Collect the crystals/figs/etc. that are spread across the land only to have them stolen in the end!".

The writing obviously could use some work, but to be honest if they just removed 90% of Kradens dialog it would be much better. Everything else with character development and plot holes... I honestly can't remember. It's been a long time since I last played the games.
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My final video~ :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHRKUzd6KI&feature=youtu.be
#57WestbrickIIIPosted 1/25/2013 2:45:23 PM
Wariofanatic posted...
Yes, it is. If you play an RPG with a world that is poorly designed then it can be a major pain to get around it.


Map design has little to do with this -- it's how the map itself is integrated into the narrative. And on this point, GS does exceptionally poorly. Instead of providing a clear place to travel, the game resorts to burning bridges and blocking off villages, forcing the player through long treks of aimless wandering.

I could be wrong, but I'm almost positive that you can skip the Djinn summons animations.


You can, but that defeats the point of the battles looking flashy.

Not all of them are like this. Some of the puzzles within the towers are other important places were actually arranged in a way that made you have to think...


I'd love to hear some examples. We agree that DD is really bad in this regard, so any from the two GBA titles would be nice.

Agree'd with most of this. However, when is an RPG not terribly cliched? While they may not be as bad as Golden sun they usually go along the lines of "Stop the dread-fiend that is trying to take over the world!", or "Collect the crystals/figs/etc. that are spread across the land only to have them stolen in the end!".


Absolutely true, but most good jRPGs start with a hackneyed narrative framework and add a unique spin to things. Without delving into spoilers, this is true of most Final Fantasy games, Breath of Fire II, Chrono Trigger, and several dozen others. Then you have jRPGs like EarthBound and Chrono Cross that are entirely original.

Really, there are three approaches: 1) having a unique story; 2) adding a unique twist on a familiar story; 3) using a generic tale as a vehicle for strong character development. GS does none of these things, and the story/writing/development is a train wreck as a result.

The writing obviously could use some work, but to be honest if they just removed 90% of Kradens dialog it would be much better. Everything else with character development and plot holes... I honestly can't remember. It's been a long time since I last played the games.


http://lparchive.org/Golden-Sun/

If you have some time to kill over the next few days, I highly, highly recommend reading through this. It crystallizes the frustrations of anti-GS folk like myself perfectly.

Either way, hopefully my strong feelings on the game don't make me a "troll" in your eyes. I'm more than happy to have (and even enjoy having) conversation about game design.
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The only thing more consistent than the Pats beating the Texans is my mother's regret she survived childbirth, knowing she spawned a welcher
#58WestbrickIIIPosted 1/25/2013 7:01:59 PM
And here's an interesting excerpt from that link about the world map you seem to like:

Golden Sun takes place on a world that is flat. Camelot gets one point for actually (in the second game) addressing why this wouldn't work, namely that the waterfalls to nowhere are eroding the sides of the planet and will probably doom towns that are a little too close to the vast expanse of nothingness, but loses about eight billion points for actually thinking this was a worthwhile framing device or element to include in anything.

At the top is Imil, located at the North end of a flat surface which denies North any special status distinct from, say, East. On Earth, the North and South parts are cold because of the way the globe tilts while rotating around a source of heat. On a flat table, there is no reason for any variation in temperate zones or reason for them to have Earth-like placement at all. The only reason is to draw a "clever" parallel with Earth (hey, look at the shape of those land masses!) that doesn't get reflected by any other geographic features ever. Also, Camelot is staffed by idiots who thought that a magically regenerating ocean eroding the edges of the Earth was a halfway non-horrible plot device.

In slightly less pedantic style, remember that big deal everyone made about seeing the ocean? Later on they're going to once again make a big deal about seeing the ocean. Right now we're right next to an ocean. Don't expect anyone to acknowledge this in any way.

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The only thing more consistent than the Pats beating the Texans is my mother's regret she survived childbirth, knowing she spawned a welcher