About the 3DS's CPU/Polygon count....(just to clarify something)

#1Rurouni720Posted 1/31/2013 8:42:13 PM
While i believe it's clock speed was slated to be pretty slow (even though that's irrelevant), i remembered it was stated that the CPU inside the 3DS was a Dual Core ARM11 that is comparable/beats the Wii's Broadway CPU even on a lower clock speed. Though for some reason people who were discussing (or denoting) the 3DS's raw power compared to the Wii's kept claiming it was worse than either the PS2/Wii's while barley being up to par in comparison to the PSP's. To which apparently was the reason for performance dips (even though said-people used early ports to prove that....). I highly doubt that would be the case for FPS dips and that it could very much be an optimization problem from lazy developers, and then there's the polygon count for the 3DS in which others kept staing it couldn't push more than the Wii's. Despite that i lack the knowledge on raw polys being pushed for either system, it would be nice if any others did. But back to the chase. Is the 3DS's ARM11 Dual Core CPU better than the Wii's Broadway CPU? And can it push more polygon counts as well? I'm mostly asking for concrete answers, just to make sure since i still believe the 3DS is stronger than the Wii.
#2ferofaxPosted 1/31/2013 9:31:44 PM
Asking technical Qs on GameFAQs tends to go nowhere... you're better off trying other more technically-oriented sites/forums.

But as to performance dips, yes, it's very likely a developer issue. Maybe not so much as a laziness issue, but it could be that some devs just lack the expertise/resources to take full advantage of the hardware. Capcom pretty much aced this with their MT Framework Mobile engine, which powers SSFIV, RE:Mercs and RE:Rev, and most especially the Monster Hunter titles on the 3DS. Of course, the earlier titles had a few hiccups and were limited in scope, but oh they were gorgeous nevertheless from the get-go. Monster Hunter 3G seems to have perfected this formula where they balanced graphics, the scope/complexity of the models/areas, and the consistence of the framerate (60FPS) with 3D on, even during multiplay.

To be fair, Capcom is using a proprietary engine, but still, if devs had the resources, they can develop their own engines that can perform at the same quality level. If only the devs would commit to it... then I really don't see why the 3DS can't have a good-looking action title (Racing, FPS, etc). It all comes down to who is willing to commit to it.
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#3gransPosted 2/1/2013 3:43:23 AM
The framerate dips in games tend to be a developer problem. And that is definitely true of the 3DS. Whether it's due to laziness, budget, not knowing how the hardware works, whatever the excuse. There exists this blatantly obvious and massive discrepancy between games from developers who push the 3DS hardware (Capcom) and developers who don't (Ubisoft for example). Heck you really need not even get into the technical aspects of the 3DS hardware to see the discrepancy, just eyes and a brain that can compare/contrast properly. For the record, this is by no means exclusive to the 3DS. For instance, currently Square Enix is developing a Kingdom Hearts HD collection for the PS3. Trailers thus far have shown framerate problems not present in the original PS2 versions. There are countless other examples of developer laziness I could provide for various consoles and handhelds.

On the CPU topic, there's nothing I can say to explain it better than how L0L_FAQ once put it. One of his many great posts on gaming hardware that explains things in a way even non tech savvy person could understand. I'll leave it here-
http://pastebin.com/Ybsn0fyA

The polygons require slightly more thought (not much). I don't believe the exact polygon power of the Wii was ever officially disclosed by Nintendo. While that might seem like an important piece of info being missing, the Wii was built on moderately overclocked Gamecube hardware. Early demo units shown at E3 2006 are said to have just been Gamecubes, simply with the new controller hooked up (and the Mario Galaxy playable demos there apparently running on GC hardware as a result). While they did so some minor improvements, Wii isn't really a substantial jump over the GC (and while GC was a very powerful system when it was new, it wasn't by 2006).

And we DO know the Gamecube polygon power. GC's GPU can push about 6-12 million polygons per second. Factor 5 did manage to push a greater number (Rogue Squadron), but they apparently did so with custom code that tapped into the CPU's power for extra polygons (something I'm not aware of other developers doing). The 3DS of course uses DMP's Pica200. And DMP detailed their GPU's features (including polygon power) in their spec sheet. For starters, the original stock model of the Pica200 can process 15.3 million polygons per second when clocked at 200mhz. That in of itself is already substantially more than the Gamecube GPU's peak.

There are two other factors to consider with the 3DS though. One is that the Pica200 inside the 3DS is actually overclocked to 268mhz, raising the polygons to somewhere around 20 million. Secondly, there's the resolution. The Pica200 was originally designed with higher resolutions in mind (far higher than 3DS, even 4k screens). The 3DS of course has a very low resolution. Even with 3D, the top screen is only 800x240. The bottom screen is 320x240, rarely used for polygonal graphics, usually only displaying simple 2D assets. With GPU's, a lower resolution causes the polygon power (along with every other aspect) to skyrocket. This is getting into unknown territory- we know the power increases by a lot, we don't know exactly how much. But for the sake of comparing to GC/Wii, we've already learned the answer, even without factoring in resolution.

And it's best not to even acknowledge anyone dumb enough to claim 3DS is barely on par or weaker than PSP (i've met a few). Your brain cells will thank you for it.
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NEVER judge a game you have not played.
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#4danny5329Posted 2/1/2013 4:06:20 AM
tl;draspitt


too long didn't read a single post in this thread
#5Rurouni720(Topic Creator)Posted 2/1/2013 4:27:36 AM
Nice! Thanks for the very informative post Grans, really appreciate it. ^-^

And yeah lol the "on-par/weaker than PSP" group are hilarious. I unfortunately found them on NeoGAF (once again...need to stop going there once in a while lol) when i looked at a recent 3DS vs Vita generation leap thread. Too many cherry picking posts and horrible oversights against the 3DS's power gave me a headache. :/

As for the KH HD Remix thing, yeah that is rather disturbing to see dips all over are happening when intense commands were used (well mostly in the RE:COM parts). Especially when the games aren't graphically intensive at all for the PS3, so it's definitely a developer's issue optimizing the HD Remix and not the hardware. If it doesn't get fixed like KH3D's case then i'll puke in shame. Then there's FFXIII-3's case in which suffered dips in the trailers as well, and i'm positive the game is still too early in development as well (though there could be a possibility on the Crystal Tools engine really biting S.E.in the ass since it's apparently a total pain to utilize and how they plan to ditch it later on).

But anyhow still, thank you for the info once again. :P
#6PikachuMittinsPosted 2/1/2013 4:47:00 AM
Good read. Topic 10/10.
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