Weakened subclass synergies :[

#1venn2001adPosted 1/28/2013 10:35:50 PM
Here is link to Zaraf's EO4 skill sim: http://www.crazyuncleivans.com/eo4skillsim/tabbed.html

If people take time to study the skill trees, I'm sure many of them would agree with me that there seem to be much LESS synergies this time around, compared to EO3.

Don't get me wrong; I know that subclass was bit too OP back in EO3 (remember Warrior's Might, anyone?), so Atlus decided to balance it a bit by cutting the obtainable skill levels for subclass by half. While this may actually make it feel like a real "sub"-class, IMO this could hurt some potentials and minimize variety in party builds.

Here's my argument: I say that many of the active skills would be mostly useless as subclass, because you can't get maximum bang from them-- they are cut in half! So only thing you can get is couple minor passives or support skills that your chars may or may not need them in the first place.

On top of that, this time around, it seems that most classes are more specialized & self-contained. Hence, there seems to be not much that each class need from other subclass, but also not much to offer as a subclass themselves.

For example, look at Zodiac from EO3. Zodiac is inherently NOT a strong class. But through subclass you can make him/her viable (or even powerful). Getting Meteor? Sub Gladiator to make an uber-nuker. Going tri-elemental? Well, max the 3 basic Stars, then sub Arbalist for Double Action-- now he/she is viable. Need double spells? Sub Ninja for Bunshin. Heck you can even sub Monk to make an ultimate elemental fist fighter (lol, Breakfire Fist), provided that you invest a lot of effort to maximize the stats.

As a subclass, Zodiac had plenty to offer too: remember Dark Ether? Or how about Etheric Charge + Singularity that made any class worth their salt with elemental skills formidable? And if TEC was high enough, anyone could make a decent Meteor user themselves.

Now look at Runemaster. Hmm... what can we sub him/her with? Medic? What, for half-baked healing? Why not just run a main Medic next to him/her? How about Mystic? Again, half-baked status with lowered chance of success. Dancer? Well, wouldn't Runemaster be busy using his/her own spells, instead of doing some half-baked dances? What about other subclasses? LOL, you gotta be kidding me...

As you can see, IMHO, there is NOTHING (or not much, to be more precise) that Runemaster can get from subclass to patch his/her weakness, nor boost his/her strength.

Ok then, what can Runemaster offer as a subclass? Hmm... a sub-par elemental spells that are even more sub-par due to "halved" max skill levels. I guess only thing left is couple passives to boost elemental skills of other by a tiny bit. That's it?

Of course, I could be wrong once the game is out. And I hope I am wrong. I want to see some variety & creativity in viable party builds, and not get shoehorned in an awkward way.

My 2 cents.
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#2spyke252Posted 1/28/2013 11:30:31 PM
To be fair, your example uses one of the worst classes this time around, and it's pretty easy to miss a possible synergy without actually trying it out ingame. For example, a fortress might be good with runemaster sub (or vice versa, I forget), because RMs allow for a lot of elemental resistance. Generally maxed skills seem to have only a 1.5x effectiveness from half maxed skills, too- so it's not as bad.

However, some combinations that have already been put forth:
Sniper/Mystic
Assassin/Mystic
^Both of these are amazing. Obviously, you would only spec binds if sniper and status if assassin, but mystic increases effect chance and gives TP restoration. You can also optionally spec into the AoE binds/status for random encounters, but I don't know if enemies are generally resistant. S/M also gives you the camo/healing stroll combo.
Medic/Swordsman
Gives you a combat medic that might be able to stun first, if Vanguard still affects Heavy Strike.
Fortress/Dancer
Assassin/Dancer
Standard TankEvade. Level 5 Fan Dance still gives 30%. I need to recalculate how much evade assassin can get with all this... are there many non-physical attacks that you can't avoid in this game?

However, this is the *point*. Subclassing isn't dual-classing. It makes sense, to me at least, that a lot of skills from one class won't really help another- the fun part is trying to find the ones that *do*.
#3zeik56Posted 1/28/2013 11:35:35 PM
I'll have to see how the game actually plays out, but I'm okay with the stuff you mentioned. You shouldn't be able to make a main class obsolete by subbing them onto another character. A Runemaster shouldn't be able to heal as well as an actual Medic just because you sub-class a Medic onto it. However a Runemaster/Medic could still provide some backup healing in-case of emergency or to keep your party healthy while dungeon crawling. To me that seems like what a sub-class should do.

In a way I felt like EO3 actually had less diversity, since there were a few sub-classes that were just so much more useful than others. Too many classes benefited from Gladiator and Zodiac subs.
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#4EnfinetePosted 1/29/2013 2:02:12 AM
Keep in mind that they reworked the gain per point (kind of like EO1 where Level 5/10 had greater gain than 1~4 or 2~8) so that it's not exactly half lost... it's somewhat better than that. I can't say more since I haven't exactly played the game yet, but I imagine that it may not be that bad.
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#5NatbukPosted 1/29/2013 1:33:39 PM
Glad you like the skill sim, and thanks again to Zaraf and nezgee for letting me use their framework.

As to the viability, runemaster is probably the worst; I went Medic myself. There's nothing half-baked about their healing - they end up very viable, able to do a ton of healing when needed due to their high TEC score. True, a main class medic can do more, but Runemaster/Medic is enough to heal to full a lot of the time with the right spells.

Second, there are builds this time that are completely main-class complete. That's nice, instead of everything relying on a subclass. When this happens, you get the extra skill points from sub-classing and throw them into passive support skills. Notice a lot of these have very little gain between half skill points and full - for instance, Runic Precision goes from 133% to 140%. The Runic Symbols go from 128%/60% to 135%/50%. That's not a huge thing to give up to be able to put those skills on any class.

For non-runemasters, look around the boards. Lots of combos that take advantage of subclasses have been found - except now which class is main matters much more often than in EO3.
#6ArylliesPosted 2/4/2013 3:20:23 AM
Just to add my 2 cent.

The Swordman with Runemaster as a subclass is still one of my favourites.
The feeling you get when your maxed Link skills uses up all of its hits and that you sweetly remember that you have a level 5 Elemental Boost + lvl 3 Rune no michibiki and that you hear this little BLING noise effect.

Nothing beats this. I used my Swordman from start to endgame. Great synergy with dancer + dual wielding Night Seeker.
#7lulzacePosted 2/5/2013 1:11:43 AM(edited)
Aryllies posted...
Just to add my 2 cent.

The Swordman with Runemaster as a subclass is still one of my favourites.
The feeling you get when your maxed Link skills uses up all of its hits and that you sweetly remember that you have a level 5 Elemental Boost + lvl 3 Rune no michibiki and that you hear this little BLING noise effect.

Nothing beats this. I used my Swordman from start to endgame. Great synergy with dancer + dual wielding Night Seeker.


Swor/Sam Imp/Sin Rune/Forr(or w/e else)
back row doesn't matter atm.

Vangaurd + Hawkeye + Symbol of Thunder/Ice/Flame
Link Plus + Charge Edge + Rune Shine(single person or party?)
Thunder/Freeze/Flame Link + Shock/Freeze/Flame Drive + An Elec/Ice/Fire skill

130% multiplier for swordsman class skill
15% elm boost(aka 115% multiplier)
140% specific element boost
Imp gets another 260% from charge edge and it might hit twice.
Bes case scenario: 7 chases imp skill hits twice, buffs affect both hits 5 hits from thunder skill

140% (130%*115%*140%) = 293.0%
2[(780%)(130%*115%*140%*260%)] = 8489%
5[(72%)(130%*115%*140%*145%*125%*124%*140%)] = 2371%(total not per hit)

<last 3 %'s on last row are RM passives>

7 chases +8% damage each time
[50% + 58% + 66% + 74% + 82% + 90% + 98%] = 518% damage

The actual output depends on who chases and how many times they chase since the damage formula's are :

The basic formula for STR-based damage is: (aATK - dDEF) * Sqrt(aSTR / dVIT).

For the player, aATK is the ATK of the weapon, and dDEF is all their equipment DEF added up then divided by 3.

For monsters, aATK is 3*aSTR, and their dDEF is equal to their VIT.

For TEC based attacks, it's: (aATK - dDEF) * Sqrt(aTEC / dTEC).

Source: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/981313-/58759700

Does a second hit from an imperials attack when using the sin shadow skills retain all buffs from the first hit? I'd assume so but, eh mechanics.

Oh and there are outside rng things that influence damage so it will usually be higher or lower instead of exact. Maybe your position on a row has something to do with it....
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#8RX_79_VPosted 2/5/2013 9:55:48 AM
Charge Edge can only be used after either Sharp or Cool Edge, unfortunately.

Rune Shine only buffs Rune Master.

One thing I hate about the Symbols is how they are buff as well which could erase my other buffs if timed incorrectly.

The damage for Swordsman's Link is calculated based on the initial Link attack.
50% of the initial Link Fire/Ice/Thunder and add 8% to each consequent follow.
Other member's attack only contributes to the amount of follows.

Link Plus adds 7 more follows so you get 8 in total.

Even when Imperial/Assassin does hit twice and every hit of a spell does hit, it is unlikely to get to 8 (unless guys in back row attack as well).

Sniper with Squall Shot is a better fit to the formula.

Swordsman with Vanguard will pass Novice/Veteran/Master Swordsman to Sniper, which helps Squall Shot.
Squall Shot doing a potential 16 hits gives enough chance for the 8 follows. (No guarantee though.)

Also, Novice/Veteran/Master Swordsman doesn't work on the Swordsman initiating the attack. It only affects everyone who attacks afterwords.
#9RikkardPosted 2/5/2013 12:24:59 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#10lulzacePosted 2/5/2013 4:30:23 PM(edited)
lulzace posted...
Aryllies posted...
Just to add my 2 cent.

The Swordman with Runemaster as a subclass is still one of my favourites.
The feeling you get when your maxed Link skills uses up all of its hits and that you sweetly remember that you have a level 5 Elemental Boost + lvl 3 Rune no michibiki and that you hear this little BLING noise effect.

Nothing beats this. I used my Swordman from start to endgame. Great synergy with dancer + dual wielding Night Seeker.


Swor/Sam Imp/Sin Rune/Forr(or w/e else)
Whatever 2 on back row.

Hawkeye
Vangaurd + Cool Edge + Symbol of Thunder/Ice/Flame
Link Plus + Charge Edge + Rune Shine
Thunder/Freeze/Flame Link + Shock/Freeze/Flame Drive + An Elec/Ice/Fire skill



8 chases +8% damage each time
[50% + 58% + 66% + 74% + 82% + 90% + 98%+106%] = 624% damage

Does a second hit from an imperials attack when using the sin shadow skills retain all buffs from the first hit? I'd assume so but, eh mechanics.


This better?

And I wasn't asking if the shadow skills would make you chase twice, just if I did a charged, swordsman boosted, RM boosted overdrive would it be

2[(183 - 80) * (Sqrt(90/90))] * [(1000%)(130%*115%*140%*260%)]

or

[(183 - 80) * (Sqrt(90/90))] * [(1000%)(130%*115%*140%*260%)]
+[(183 - 80) * (Sqrt(90/90))] * [(1000%)]
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Official Kyuubi No Kitsune of the SMT IV Boards.
Plz let SMTxFE Hito-Shura have Freikugel!