The problem with Paper Mario: Sticker Star

#161quietisgoodPosted 11/25/2012 11:13:17 AM
it's funny how you've changed your definition of story-centric from "A video game with more emphasis placed on story-related elements than gameplay-related elements" to "a plot that holds the entire exposition together." the latter definition being completely different than the one i was using as the basis of this discussion and two, it's a ridiculously broad definition that could be applied to 95% of games, including sticker star.

try again, this time without changing what this entire argument was about in the first place.
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Hypothetically, if the only choice you've got is to do the wrong thing, then it's not really the wrong thing, it's more like fate.
#162Counterpwnt(Topic Creator)Posted 11/25/2012 2:12:25 PM
quietisgood posted...
it's funny how you've changed your definition of story-centric from "A video game with more emphasis placed on story-related elements than gameplay-related elements" to "a plot that holds the entire exposition together." the latter definition being completely different than the one i was using as the basis of this discussion and two, it's a ridiculously broad definition that could be applied to 95% of games, including sticker star.

try again, this time without changing what this entire argument was about in the first place.


I wasn't done yet, man. And if you think "a plot that holds the entire exposition together" versus the obviously inferred "gameplay that holds the entire exposition together" is different than "more emphasis based on story-related elements than gameplay-related elements," you need to pump the brakes.

If you responded like that in an academic setting, you'd be laughed out of the room, or people would hold their silence in embarrassment until you stopped talking.

If you can't extrapolate that something else might "hold the entire exposition together," how are you going to handle this discussion when I get into something that takes even more thought on the part of the refutée?

Just because I didn't spell out that the game's entirety might be "held together" by some other aspect of video games doesn't mean it isn't inferred.

Either address the actual points, or wait until I'm finished.

Story-centric = focus on story elements = story elements are the glue that marry the gameplay and the aesthetics = the entire game is held together by the presence of plot and plot elements. I can say it however you like, it's still the same explanation. Think of a pie chart if you must. The biggest slice, the obtuse one? Yeah. It would say story.

Let me explain why I feel that Paper Mario is a story-centric title before you start in on your usual semantics.
#163wiiking96Posted 11/25/2012 2:20:31 PM
quietisgood, please explain why PM isn't story centric as you have claimed. You have failed to do so so far.
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#164Counterpwnt(Topic Creator)Posted 11/25/2012 2:35:04 PM
The prologue begins with Goombaria finding Mario passed out in a leafy glade near the Goomba house.

At this point, there has still been much more dialogue, narrative, and guided cinematic structure than actual playing of the game. While I would be one to side with the idea that this, in itself, is proof of a story-centric title, I will continue this explanation for the sake of weighting the argument.

Mario revives at a Toad House—but not before he is visited by Eldstar, who fills him in on what has happened and what he needs to do next. This is a clear plot element—Mario is given a purpose, and the player is given some semblance of guidance.

The goings-on at the Goomba residence prior to Mario leaving with Goombario serves numerous purposes: to introduce a recurring villain, Jr. Koopa; to provide further introduction to the game's combat mechanics; and to give plot-based reasons for Goombario to join Mario on his quest. Goombario's grandfather feels he has come of age and is ready for this kind of adventure; further, Goombario serves as a guide, as he knows much about the immediate surrounding area as well as areas out of the player's line of sight.

Mario leaves and heads to Shooting Star Summit, passing through Toad Town on the way, where he learns of the destruction wrought by Bowser's attack, and that the southern area of town is blocked by debris. This serves the purpose of keeping the player out of the southern part of town for balancing and attention-fatigue reasons; but it is done so in a way that is plot-based, not "just because," in the same way that Goombario is added to the party.

Upon returning from Shooting Star Summit, Mario meets Twink and receives the Star Medal, allowing him to perform Action Commands. This gift from Peach becomes a link between Mario and his party's goings-on outside of Bowser's castle, and Peach and Twink's goings-on inside of Bowser's castle. Mario could have just as easily simply found the Star Medal or been given it by any number of characters heretofore acknowledged.

The developers likely used it as a gift from Peach in order to establish a sense of scope. You see the story developing from both sides: Mario's actions, Peach's actions, their reactions to one another, as well as Bowser and Kammy Koopa's reactions to what is going on. This sense of scope gives the feel of one reading a book that transfers narrative focus between different characters. Via Bowser's journal, we even see Bowser's point of view.

It's worth it to mention that many of these plot elements are not necessary for Mario to travel to the Koopa Bros. fortress. They are icing on the story's cake, further instilling the feeling that the characters and their actions are the major focus of the game, not the game's combat or movement periods. There is considerable more time spent engaging in dialogue, monologue, and/or narrative than combat or item management at this point.

Before Mario leaves to take Pleasant Path to the east, he is cautioned by Merlon that he will meet a Koopa with a blue shell. This becomes Chapter 1.

Much of the game's focus is on offering a believable reason for its gameplay elements. Want more Mushrooms or items, or badges? They can be found out in the world, a staple of the Mario games, but they can also be bought from Toad shops in town or, eventually, Rowf's Badge shop. The idea that the shops and establishments in and around Toad Town exist before, during, and after Mario's adventure is a common story trope, giving a wider sense of place than if the world seemed entirely built around Mario and his particular needs.

I'll write more soon, but it'd be nice if you nay-sayers would address some of these points instead of haranguing me about definitions.
#165quietisgoodPosted 11/25/2012 4:18:19 PM(edited)
Counterpwnt posted...
quietisgood posted...
it's funny how you've changed your definition of story-centric from "A video game with more emphasis placed on story-related elements than gameplay-related elements" to "a plot that holds the entire exposition together." the latter definition being completely different than the one i was using as the basis of this discussion and two, it's a ridiculously broad definition that could be applied to 95% of games, including sticker star.

try again, this time without changing what this entire argument was about in the first place.


I wasn't done yet, man. And if you think "a plot that holds the entire exposition together" versus the obviously inferred "gameplay that holds the entire exposition together" is different than "more emphasis based on story-related elements than gameplay-related elements," you need to pump the brakes.

If you responded like that in an academic setting, you'd be laughed out of the room, or people would hold their silence in embarrassment until you stopped talking.

If you can't extrapolate that something else might "hold the entire exposition together," how are you going to handle this discussion when I get into something that takes even more thought on the part of the refutée?

Just because I didn't spell out that the game's entirety might be "held together" by some other aspect of video games doesn't mean it isn't inferred.

Either address the actual points, or wait until I'm finished.

Story-centric = focus on story elements = story elements are the glue that marry the gameplay and the aesthetics = the entire game is held together by the presence of plot and plot elements. I can say it however you like, it's still the same explanation. Think of a pie chart if you must. The biggest slice, the obtuse one? Yeah. It would say story.

Let me explain why I feel that Paper Mario is a story-centric title before you start in on your usual semantics.


lol.
1)keep backpedaling bro, "a plot that holds the entire exposition together" is entirely different from "more emphasis based on story-related elements than gameplay-related elements" (to say these are the same things would get you laughed out of any academic setting fyi) the first is something that could apply to pretty much every game with a plot.
2)explain what? you haven't explained a god damn thing in three ****ing posts.
all you've done is hyper-analyze the plot of paper mario, you haven't logically constructed an argument. the only thing you've proven is that you're insane.

when you actually make a point (one that's related to what the argument was about in the first place), instead of a glorified plot summary, you'll get a response.

quietisgood, please explain why PM isn't story centric as you have claimed. You have failed to do so so far.

please learn basic logical concepts before posting again, thanks.
---
Hypothetically, if the only choice you've got is to do the wrong thing, then it's not really the wrong thing, it's more like fate.
#166Attack_A_HorsePosted 11/25/2012 4:20:52 PM
Counterpwnt posted...
The prologue begins with Goombaria finding Mario passed out in a leafy glade near the Goomba house.

At this point, there has still been much more dialogue, narrative, and guided cinematic structure than actual playing of the game. While I would be one to side with the idea that this, in itself, is proof of a story-centric title, I will continue this explanation for the sake of weighting the argument.

Mario revives at a Toad House—but not before he is visited by Eldstar, who fills him in on what has happened and what he needs to do next. This is a clear plot element—Mario is given a purpose, and the player is given some semblance of guidance.

The goings-on at the Goomba residence prior to Mario leaving with Goombario serves numerous purposes: to introduce a recurring villain, Jr. Koopa; to provide further introduction to the game's combat mechanics; and to give plot-based reasons for Goombario to join Mario on his quest. Goombario's grandfather feels he has come of age and is ready for this kind of adventure; further, Goombario serves as a guide, as he knows much about the immediate surrounding area as well as areas out of the player's line of sight.

Mario leaves and heads to Shooting Star Summit, passing through Toad Town on the way, where he learns of the destruction wrought by Bowser's attack, and that the southern area of town is blocked by debris. This serves the purpose of keeping the player out of the southern part of town for balancing and attention-fatigue reasons; but it is done so in a way that is plot-based, not "just because," in the same way that Goombario is added to the party.

Upon returning from Shooting Star Summit, Mario meets Twink and receives the Star Medal, allowing him to perform Action Commands. This gift from Peach becomes a link between Mario and his party's goings-on outside of Bowser's castle, and Peach and Twink's goings-on inside of Bowser's castle. Mario could have just as easily simply found the Star Medal or been given it by any number of characters heretofore acknowledged.

BLABALBALABLABLABLABLA

I'll write more soon, but it'd be nice if you nay-sayers would address some of these points instead of haranguing me about definitions.


LOL IM SORRY BUT WHAT THE F*CK STAWP

No one said Paper Mario does not have a plot. Why are you explaining every word of the game? We get it, Paper Mario has a story, no one is arguing that.

What points have you raised? Why are you doing this? You could break down every word of every game ever created, including Sticker Star, that does not prove anything. I am actually dumbfounded as to what in the world you are doing.

Also, you completely changed your definition of story-centric, so it is more vague. I would say you did this so it applies more to your points but you have not raised any and I frankly have no idea where you are going with these huge ass walls of texts that break down Paper Mario.
#167SeaArrKingPosted 11/25/2012 4:31:03 PM
Counterpwnt posted...
wiiking96 posted...
Counterpwnt posted...
quietisgood,

Please give me an example of 1 game you consider to be story-centric, and why that game is story-centric but Paper Mario is not.

He won't because he's a troll. That's really the only explanation.


I just am genuinely curious at this point. As one might guess from this thread, I am a very big fan of games with powerful stories.

If there's some game out there that Paper Mario compares so poorly to that he doesn't even consider it story-centric, I'd like to know what that game is.


Wait a minute. Paper Mario has a powerful story? Ha. Paper Mario is not Chrono Trigger or Killer7. Its story is, actually, overly simplistic. That's what Nintendo does well and while I love it, it's silly to say that any story in any Mario game is powerful. Although I acknowledge that you didn't specifically state that Paper Mario's story is powerful, you have said that Paper Mario is, to you, a "story-centric game" and that you like games with "powerful stories". So I'm just supposing that you believe Paper Mario, a "story-centric game", also features a "powerful story". Did I feel anything when I beat Paper Mario? Sure, I felt that same good feeling I feel when I beat other Mario games. Saving the princess always feels good. Was that good feeling a result of masterful storytelling? Most likely not. I enjoy how quirky Paper Mario is, and some of the writing in it makes me laugh, but it's not a "powerful story".

I'm just going to use Chrono Trigger as my example of a powerful story, because its story is one that has stuck with me even though I only played the game once a few years ago. At the end of Chrono Trigger, I was legitimately sad. I won't spoil the game for anyone, but I'll just say that before the credits roll the events that they show made me feel something much more substantial than anything a Mario game has made me feel. I play Mario games, including Paper Mario games, for their simple fun and charm. If I want a powerful story, I'll go elsewhere.
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#168Attack_A_HorsePosted 11/25/2012 4:36:24 PM
SeaArrKing posted...
Counterpwnt posted...
wiiking96 posted...
Counterpwnt posted...
quietisgood,

Please give me an example of 1 game you consider to be story-centric, and why that game is story-centric but Paper Mario is not.

He won't because he's a troll. That's really the only explanation.


I just am genuinely curious at this point. As one might guess from this thread, I am a very big fan of games with powerful stories.

If there's some game out there that Paper Mario compares so poorly to that he doesn't even consider it story-centric, I'd like to know what that game is.


Wait a minute. Paper Mario has a powerful story? Ha. Paper Mario is not Chrono Trigger or Killer7. Its story is, actually, overly simplistic. That's what Nintendo does well and while I love it, it's silly to say that any story in any Mario game is powerful. Although I acknowledge that you didn't specifically state that Paper Mario's story is powerful, you have said that Paper Mario is, to you, a "story-centric game" and that you like games with "powerful stories". So I'm just supposing that you believe Paper Mario, a "story-centric game", also features a "powerful story". Did I feel anything when I beat Paper Mario? Sure, I felt that same good feeling I feel when I beat other Mario games. Saving the princess always feels good. Was that good feeling a result of masterful storytelling? Most likely not. I enjoy how quirky Paper Mario is, and some of the writing in it makes me laugh, but it's not a "powerful story".

I'm just going to use Chrono Trigger as my example of a powerful story, because its story is one that has stuck with me even though I only played the game once a few years ago. At the end of Chrono Trigger, I was legitimately sad. I won't spoil the game for anyone, but I'll just say that before the credits roll the events that they show made me feel something much more substantial than anything a Mario game has made me feel. I play Mario games, including Paper Mario games, for their simple fun and charm. If I want a powerful story, I'll go elsewhere.


This x1000.

inb4 someone starts accusing you of being an alt account.
#169wiiking96Posted 11/25/2012 4:47:45 PM
quietisgood posted...
quietisgood, please explain why PM isn't story centric as you have claimed. You have failed to do so so far.

please learn basic logical concepts before posting again, thanks.

Nothing in this response shows any form of logical thought. You just pathetically dodged the question and insulted me.

Here's what's going on:
1. The TC claimed that the Paper Mario has traditionally been story centric.
2. He also recently provided an analysis that showed how much focus was put on the story over the gameplay.
3. You claimed that Paper Mario hasn't been story centric.
4. You also haven't provided a clear argument for why it hasn't.

Until you do, why should anyone believe you are correct in this situation? All you do is dismiss people instead of actually addressing their points.

Please just defend your position.
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Quote and Curly Brace for Super Smash Bros 4!
Appeasing an unlimited amount of chocolate . . .
#170quietisgoodPosted 11/25/2012 5:10:05 PM
wiiking96 posted...
quietisgood posted...
quietisgood, please explain why PM isn't story centric as you have claimed. You have failed to do so so far.

please learn basic logical concepts before posting again, thanks.

Nothing in this response shows any form of logical thought. You just pathetically dodged the question and insulted me.

Here's what's going on:
1. The TC claimed that the Paper Mario has traditionally been story centric.
2. He also recently provided an analysis that showed how much focus was put on the story over the gameplay.
3. You claimed that Paper Mario hasn't been story centric.
4. You also haven't provided a clear argument for why it hasn't.

Until you do, why should anyone believe you are correct in this situation? All you do is dismiss people instead of actually addressing their points.

Please just defend your position.

except his "analysis" doesn't prove anything, try again.
again, stop posting until you learn basic logical concepts.
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Hypothetically, if the only choice you've got is to do the wrong thing, then it's not really the wrong thing, it's more like fate.