I was unhappy with Miyamoto long before this came out...

#1avengahPosted 2/27/2013 9:26:37 AM
I had the impression that he didn't do any work except to prance around telling others what to do. Back then, more people respected him so not as many were as receptive to my opinions, but look how things have changed!

Here's the post, if anyone's interested. It's #59.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/960633-the-legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword/63352328?page=1

Note that I do think this game's enjoyable, but I also think it would have been better with a story etc. so I still think Miyamoto should get off his high horse and retire already.
---
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F
#2PT_PiranhaPosted 2/27/2013 11:47:51 AM
I've heard that the most he really did was give his opinion ("too much like TTYD") and ask the team if they really needed a story for this game. And that apparently he asks the Zelda team the same question each time they make a game, and that they just ignore him. If that's true, then at least part of it is IA's fault.

That's just stuff I've read, anyway. I'll agree that he seems a little out of touch with a portion of the fanbase, even if I do like most of Mario's recent outings.
---
OH. BANANA.
"Mints make me lonely."
#3Adamario_129Posted 3/3/2013 2:05:01 PM(edited)
He did not just "ask if they needed a story." He said "It's fine without a story, do we really need one?" Yes, there's a question mark at the end of that phrasing, but Miyamoto knew what the answer was supposed to be.

And the IS team admitted (albeit somewhat jokingly) in the Iwata interview that they felt intimidated by Miyamoto; that he was a "scary" presence. And of course they would. No matter how good you are or how long you've been making games, if Shigeru Effing Miyamoto, the man, the legend, the god with over thirty years of experience in creating iconic games, comes in and not-so-subtly implies that you're doing things wrong, pretty good chance you're gonna listen if you don't want to get fired.

As for Zelda, yes, the games start out with no story, just gameplay. The plot and characters are added later in development by people other than Miyamoto. But Zelda and Mario are different (though they really don't need to be as different as Miyamoto insists on making them). Zelda is a legend. You can't have a legend without a story. Even Miyamoto knows that. But Mario, to Miyamoto, is minimalistic action.

The problem is that Miyamoto seems to be blindly imposing the main series mindset on the entire Mario universe. Minimalistic action works great for platformers. It does not work for Paper Mario. The entire reason Paper Mario exists is not its graphical style -- it's to have the emphasis be less on the action and more on story (remember that the first game was called "Mario Story" in Japan); on the mechanics of Mario's world; taking a deeper look at things from an angle that is never approached in any other Mario series. And it's not like IS was taking the main series platformers and trying to make them more Braid than SMB. Paper Mario has always been a side series. It never posed any threat to the plotlessness of Miyamoto's games.

After Galaxy, Miyamoto shared that he felt he had finally discovered the "essence of Mario" -- no plot, no complications, just pure action, with nothing unnecessary. But what he apparently fails to realize is that the "essence of Mario" he's talking about is actually the "essence of Mario platformers", not the "essence of every game with Mario in it." Kart racing is not part of the "essence of Mario" -- that doesn't mean you can make a Mario Kart game without it! Buying properties and selling off stocks to create panics are sure as hell not part of the essence of Mario, but that doesn't mean Mario can't be in Fortune Street, which was a damn good game -- though it would be a horrible platformer! Likewise, you cannot make a Mario Story game without a story!
---
"An apostrophe does not mean 'uh-oh, here comes an s.'" - Dave Barry
#4Pikablu45Posted 3/3/2013 9:57:01 PM
^ SO agree with everything in this post. He is a fool. He quite literally doesn't know what actually appeals to people anymore!

I was actually unhappy when he released SPM, ever since then every Mario release has been one crappy game after another.
---
Lang Zi says 'Furio Tigre can only be half the beastly hot man my descendant can be...'
You go Shifu!! *Fangirl Roar*
#5Czar_YoshiPosted 3/3/2013 10:05:16 PM
Pikablu45 posted...
^ SO agree with everything in this post. He is a fool. He quite literally doesn't know what actually appeals to people anymore!

I was actually unhappy when he released SPM, ever since then every Mario release has been one crappy game after another.


SPM had its flaws, but the story wasn't one of them. The main story (not counting subplots and backstories) was far and away the best in the PM series.
---
"it's that game that is so great it makes you want to destroy your Toilet." -Throwback2780
#6Adamario_129Posted 3/3/2013 11:07:37 PM(edited)
At some point, Miyamoto forgot that he made more than an action game. He made a world filled with character. We don't just love Mario because jumping is fun and the controls are tight. We love that world. A magical Alice-in-Wonderland-esque world, with mushrooms making us bigger and smaller. A dragon kidnapping a princess, and instead of a knight in shining armor coming to her rescue, it's a down-to-earth working-class Italian-American in overalls. Cute and/or terrifying creatures at every turn. Beautiful settings (the original Super Mario Bros. would not have made as big of an impact if that first level hadn't had a bright blue skies).

That world resonated with us, especially those of us who grew up engulfed by it. And that is why there are Mario spinoffs (the non-cynical reason, at least). We want to see more of that world. (There was a time when the reason we looked forward to new Mario games was to see more of the Mushroom World. Now Nintendo clearly thinks that doesn't matter.) Would Mario Kart or Tennis or Golf be just as fun without the Mario characters and setting? Yes, and no. Part of the enjoyment comes from the feeling of exploring Mario's world.

Looking closer at background elements. Asking what-if questions. Putting characters in different situations, putting different characters in the world. Alternate takes. Multiple voices. That was the richness that the spinoff series offered. Not everything has to conform to Miyamoto's vision. Even Lucas, as controlling as he was with the Star Wars movies, allowed a vast number of writers and artists to have their own takes in the Expanded Universe works, without his control.

I mean, really, the Expanded Universe fundamentally contradicts Lucas's vision of the Star Wars universe. In Lucas's mind, Anakin is the Chosen One, and when he kills the Emperor at the end of Jedi, he fulfills his prophesied role of destroying the Sith forever and bringing peace to the galaxy. The Expanded Universe takes a more realistic look -- blowing up the second Death Star and killing the leader didn't wipe out the galaxy-spanning empire, it just caused a power struggle. It took decades for the Alliance to maintain some semblance of order, and less than 150 years afterward, the Alliance has crumbled and there are over ten thousand Sith. In the Expanded Universe, Anakin cannot be the Chosen One; not without some very liberal interpretation of Jedi scripture, at least. But Lucas doesn't care. Not his movies, not his problem; as long as he gets his royalty checks, he lets us have our fun.

With Sticker Star, I feel like I'm being evicted from Mario's world. The glimpses I had gotten from SMB3 and SMW enticed me, and with SMRPG and PM1 and 2, I was invited to come in. Sticker Star is kicking me back out to the peripheries, forced to subsist once more on those brief glimpses, even as they become briefer and more repetitive.

I love the world Miyamoto made. I want to see more of it, from more angles. But he won't show me that world anymore, and he doesn't want anyone else to show it to me either. If things don't change, Sticker Star will mark the death of one of the best alternate takes the Mario universe has ever had.
---
"An apostrophe does not mean 'uh-oh, here comes an s.'" - Dave Barry
#7SullyTheStrangePosted 3/3/2013 11:11:37 PM
Adamario... I'm on the verge of starting a Kickstarter to get you in the same room as Miyamoto with his undivided attention, so you can say all of that dead-on straight to his face. I agree, very strongly, with every word you've posted here.
---
All's fair in love and war, kid.
#8john_the_IIIPosted 3/4/2013 12:39:16 AM
Adamario_129 posted...
At some point, Miyamoto forgot that he made more than an action game. He made a world filled with character. We don't just love Mario because jumping is fun and the controls are tight. We love that world. A magical Alice-in-Wonderland-esque world, with mushrooms making us bigger and smaller. A dragon kidnapping a princess, and instead of a knight in shining armor coming to her rescue, it's a down-to-earth working-class Italian-American in overalls. Cute and/or terrifying creatures at every turn. Beautiful settings (the original Super Mario Bros. would not have made as big of an impact if that first level hadn't had a bright blue skies).

That world resonated with us, especially those of us who grew up engulfed by it. And that is why there are Mario spinoffs (the non-cynical reason, at least). We want to see more of that world. (There was a time when the reason we looked forward to new Mario games was to see more of the Mushroom World. Now Nintendo clearly thinks that doesn't matter.) Would Mario Kart or Tennis or Golf be just as fun without the Mario characters and setting? Yes, and no. Part of the enjoyment comes from the feeling of exploring Mario's world.

Looking closer at background elements. Asking what-if questions. Putting characters in different situations, putting different characters in the world. Alternate takes. Multiple voices. That was the richness that the spinoff series offered. Not everything has to conform to Miyamoto's vision. Even Lucas, as controlling as he was with the Star Wars movies, allowed a vast number of writers and artists to have their own takes in the Expanded Universe works, without his control.

I mean, really, the Expanded Universe fundamentally contradicts Lucas's vision of the Star Wars universe. In Lucas's mind, Anakin is the Chosen One, and when he kills the Emperor at the end of Jedi, he fulfills his prophesied role of destroying the Sith forever and bringing peace to the galaxy. The Expanded Universe takes a more realistic look -- blowing up the second Death Star and killing the leader didn't wipe out the galaxy-spanning empire, it just caused a power struggle. It took decades for the Alliance to maintain some semblance of order, and less than 150 years afterward, the Alliance has crumbled and there are over ten thousand Sith. In the Expanded Universe, Anakin cannot be the Chosen One; not without some very liberal interpretation of Jedi scripture, at least. But Lucas doesn't care. Not his movies, not his problem; as long as he gets his royalty checks, he lets us have our fun.

With Sticker Star, I feel like I'm being evicted from Mario's world. The glimpses I had gotten from SMB3 and SMW enticed me, and with SMRPG and PM1 and 2, I was invited to come in. Sticker Star is kicking me back out to the peripheries, forced to subsist once more on those brief glimpses, even as they become briefer and more repetitive.

I love the world Miyamoto made. I want to see more of it, from more angles. But he won't show me that world anymore, and he doesn't want anyone else to show it to me either. If things don't change, Sticker Star will mark the death of one of the best alternate takes the Mario universe has ever had.


I couldn't agree more with this, if miyamoto does what he did to the sticker star to all Mario spinoffs, then they will die as well, hopefully miyamoto has learned his lesson from this game that we don't all share his vision
#9megaflashmarioPosted 3/4/2013 8:00:10 AM
avengah posted...
I had the impression that he didn't do any work except to prance around telling others what to do. Back then, more people respected him so not as many were as receptive to my opinions, but look how things have changed!

Here's the post, if anyone's interested. It's #59.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/960633-the-legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword/63352328?page=1

Note that I do think this game's enjoyable, but I also think it would have been better with a story etc. so I still think Miyamoto should get off his high horse and retire already.


RETIRE!!!!!!!!!!! RETIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Miyamoto should work at nintendo till DEATH!!!!!!!!!!! If Miyamoto retired games would be worse then how worse you say this game is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#10avengah(Topic Creator)Posted 3/4/2013 8:31:25 AM(edited)
Do you seriously think, no matter how good games like Galaxy 2 are, that Miyamoto insisting that there be "no story" is a good thing? We've seen it done in a non-intrusive way in Galaxy 1, and it WORKED. It's optional so everyone's happy.

Also, about Zelda, Miyamoto wants to make a game that "a lot of people will want to play / be able to enjoy". By saying things like that, you get the unnecessary hand-holding to the extent of Skyward Sword, and it actually puts veteran players off. Not to mention that no matter how much Miyamoto tries to appeal to them, casuals simply won't be interested in a game like Zelda.

He's been taking completely the wrong approach lately; he doesn't understand the demographics at all. My dad and my nan will never play Zelda, no matter what Miyamoto says about appealing to everyone, and the only result is a dumbed-down, hand-holding game.
---
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F