So what's the balance like?

#1scarlet_puppyPosted 4/20/2012 4:40:21 AM
I realise it's probably way too early to be asking a question like that, but after about a month and a half of developing the metagame, how is the character balance?

Because for me, that's a big aspect with regards to whether or not I continue with a fighting game.

In fact, while I'm making this thread, I may as well ask - what's the balance between offense and defense like? Because SSFIV was rather defensive in nature, but the trend in more recent fighting games seems to be leaning towards offense (MK9, SCV etc.)
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#2KillerKhan420Posted 4/20/2012 7:51:36 AM
The mishima clan (esp kazuya) and the grapplers (esp hugo) are tops right now.
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#3SoulPower85Posted 4/20/2012 8:00:42 AM
Why not just play the game? I mean really?
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#4lilmattsbackPosted 4/20/2012 8:30:56 AM
KillerKhan420 posted...
The mishima clan (esp kazuya) and the grapplers (esp hugo) are tops right now.

Not true. The mentioned groups are high, not top.
#5_Rushdown_Posted 4/20/2012 8:43:52 AM
People better than you will beat you, people worse than you will lose. Generally. The balance is fine.
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#6scarlet_puppy(Topic Creator)Posted 4/20/2012 10:05:19 AM
SoulPower85 posted...
Why not just play the game? I mean really?

Because I don't want to risk spending money on a game that might be a total mess. :P
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#7KazumiAmanoPosted 4/20/2012 1:39:53 PM
The character balance is terrible, there's a top 10-15 characters and then a whole slew of characters who aren't as overall useful for multiple reasons compared to taking one of the top characters. The top characters are just straight up powerful and stupid; take Ryu, he gets good zoning, great damage, infinite frame traps due to an advantageous HK Donkey Kick and good normal xx Hadouken dash cancel pressure, a DP, mid-screen cross-up aerial Tatsu, and no weakness.

In terms of offense vs. defense, the game is highly stilted towards whatever the top-tier use vs. the rest of the cast. Raven's keepaway and runaway skills give him IMO an 8-2 match-up vs. a lot of the cast, which I wouldn't say about any zoning match-up in SSF4. The best analogy I could give is Raven is vanilla Seth with high health, the rest of the cast are Zangief. On the flip-side, certain top characters like Rufus and Kazuya can just abuse the poor AA and reversal ability of a large part of the cast and bully them with high-reward, low-risk offense.

The game's balance is horrible. If you haven't gotten the game yet, I recommend you stay away until SSFxT or whatever comes, because this game is a broken mess, with input bugs, gems that let you automatically block or pre-emptively stop the next bit of damage you take, derpy pressure, and a lot of fundamentals like "don't jump" or "mashing is situational because it's risky and requires a bit of meter" get thrown out the window. Only buy if you're looking to play co-op, as that's the only value I feel this game has whatsoever.
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#8SteadySharkPosted 4/21/2012 2:58:30 AM

From: KazumiAmano | #007
The character balance is terrible, there's a top 10-15 characters and then a whole slew of characters who aren't as overall useful for multiple reasons compared to taking one of the top characters. The top characters are just straight up powerful and stupid; take Ryu, he gets good zoning, great damage, infinite frame traps due to an advantageous HK Donkey Kick and good normal xx Hadouken dash cancel pressure, a DP, mid-screen cross-up aerial Tatsu, and no weakness.

In terms of offense vs. defense, the game is highly stilted towards whatever the top-tier use vs. the rest of the cast. Raven's keepaway and runaway skills give him IMO an 8-2 match-up vs. a lot of the cast, which I wouldn't say about any zoning match-up in SSF4. The best analogy I could give is Raven is vanilla Seth with high health, the rest of the cast are Zangief. On the flip-side, certain top characters like Rufus and Kazuya can just abuse the poor AA and reversal ability of a large part of the cast and bully them with high-reward, low-risk offense.

The game's balance is horrible. If you haven't gotten the game yet, I recommend you stay away until SSFxT or whatever comes, because this game is a broken mess, with input bugs, gems that let you automatically block or pre-emptively stop the next bit of damage you take, derpy pressure, and a lot of fundamentals like "don't jump" or "mashing is situational because it's risky and requires a bit of meter" get thrown out the window. Only buy if you're looking to play co-op, as that's the only value I feel this game has whatsoever.




Basically sums up how I feel about the balance and general gameplay.

Finally having a 2D fighter with the ability to tag up with a friend is the only reason why I can stomach this game, really - although part of me does have the desire to "get good".
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#9lilmattsbackPosted 4/21/2012 4:31:14 AM
KazumiAmano posted...
stuff

I'm only saying this because I don't feel like anyone else will. There is no denying that there are fifteen or so top characters that are clearly more dominant than the bottom fifteen with a middle ground that seems black and white. However, this seems to be the case in almost every game (including outside of fighters). In most non-fighting games, there can usually be found a set of equipment or a handful of weapons that are clearly so much more dominant than the rest that the rest become redundant.

For instance, in Castlevania Harmony of Despair, I find that the Valmanway makes almost every weapon useless. In Call of Duty 4, the M16 made most of them seem ineffective. In Halo, there was the BR. In Vegas, there was the Mtar. In AE, Yun/Yang/Fei/Viper seemed to provide the fountain. In Vanilla, it was Sagat/Akuma/Ryu. In 3s, we had Yun/Chun/Ken. In CvS2 we had Blanka/Sak/Bison A Groove.

In almost every fighting game, S and A tier characters seem to displace the purpose of picking characters in B or lower tier positions. However, there are players out there who dedicate time to certain characters (especially when the game is still very new, and proclaimed 'pro' players find themselves inexperienced) or the games engine and throughout a community, things are discovered.

Look at SF4 for an answer to this. Makoto was considered one of the worst characters in SSF4, with Hakan. They both recieved a handful of buffs, but Hakan (still an underused character) didn't shift as far as Makoto (a character with a huge following in the community, in which every member helped pushed her meta to unparallelled levels) did. I would argue that the buffs Makoto was gifted weren't radical enough to take a bottom tier character into top fifteen placement, but the consensus seemed it.

I think, just like Bison from Vanilla to Super, the dedication of a lot of players helped push the character through the ranks more than the buffs. The buffs clearly helped a lot, but what good would a bunch of buffs be to a character whose potential has yet to be discovered?

I feel this is what's going on with SFxT. There are a lot of things under the hood that we haven't really utilized fully yet. Including elements that will warp the meta. I feel the game is really unpolished, but I can't help but see some of the potential it has and the implications on how it may be played.

The more specific things in your post seem more like personal issues, as you even stated they are in your opinion. Obviously, Raven and Ryu are really good right now. It also implies that they have a low ceiling, which can be good or bad depending on how you take it. However, comparing Raven to Vanilla Seth is a little farfetched. Raven has a lot of issues, like an unreliable anti-air, and a bad reversal option. His footsies aren't that great, and the startup on his projectiles aren't that good. He's very weak against option selects and rush down, as well. I would hardly consider him having 8-2 matchups with most of the cast. Maybe with Hugo and Gief, and maybe Marduk, but it's extremely shady to consider that a matchup baseline for most of the cast. He's not gamebreaking or over-dominant in this engine to that point.

Rufus' dive kick has a really bad hitbox in this game and most people seem too timid to test people from using it at this point, but considering that even a c.lp AAs Rufus' dive kick and puts him in a juggle state isn't necessarily dominant. He's also weak against alpha counters in a way that takes away any of his string enders or leaves him unsafe because he chooses not to end with GT. I think losing between 200-400 is a pretty steep risk for generating an offense.
#10lilmattsbackPosted 4/21/2012 4:33:31 AM
Just like SF4, I feel that Ryu was developed in SFxT as a baseline for how balanced and solid most characters were supposed to be, and somewhere down the line they decided to slip away from that mentality. It is unfortunate that Ryu is so solid while other characters are seemingly so underwhelming, but it should play to your strengths that you'll have enough Ryu experience to deal with a mass of Ryus. He doesn't have one particular thing that he excels in at all; He has a group of tools that are slightly better than mediocre that all stack up. In a way, that is a weakness and a strength.

Ryu cannot infinitely frame trap with HK joudan kick, because its startup is massive, and can be stuffed on reaction with almost any of your normals. It seems scary at first, but I usually welcome it. He is also minus when he dash cancels his normals out of hadouken cadc. Ryu's zoning aspect is decent, I will say, but I don't even think he has the best zoning game, in a game where special steps are abundant and any character can just hop on the fireball and roll forward. It's a risk, but it's your decision to outweigh the options you can exhaust. Throw on vitality gems and two roll attemps later, your health will start regenerating.

Personally, I do not have a point character. I have Hugo on the back end, and since I've had the game, I've been using mostly characters that the community considers top ten as point characters. Not to be a tier whore, because I'm now starting to move my way down the ranks (to learn every character I can), but because I want to learn the best characters now so that I have an idea of how to deal with them first considering how many of them I expect to run in to. I hope within a few weeks that I'll have enough experience with most of the cast to finally decide on a point character as well, but that's not necessarily the primary goal for me.

Mashing and 'don't jump' aren't really thrown out at all. I have no problem whatsoever making reversals whiff and getting free punishes that I don't feel I earned for 400-500 DMG (Hugooooo). I sometimes feel criminal for how quickly I gain meter and the ability to AA 3/4s of the screen as well. Even without Hugo, there are tons of AA options that can lead into big damage, and hopefully we'll start to see the bad players thin out over the course of a couple of months. =]

TL;DR?

Up close: Reversal, backdash, block, launcher, alpha counter, try to counter poke or interrupt.

Far away: Jump, special step, walk forward, land on fireball and roll, react and punish fireball with move, forward dash.

Tired of getting jumped on? Start punishing: Anti air normals, anti air special, backdash, forward dash, CROSS ART (400+ unrecoverable damage that also diminishes recoverable health and easily AAs), jump normal counter (in some cases).