+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Suikoden III - In Depth FAQs
Version 1.4
Last update: December 27, 2002
by Eli H.  starvenus101@hotmail.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


This FAQ is based on Suikoden III North American version.


Disclaimer :
This is my first FAQ and I have great time writing it.
And I don't want to be rude or anything but as much as I really appreciate
people who will be willing to help me, I would rather to do it on my own
since I really like this game very much. Even though as the consequences,
this FAQ will have slower progress, however, I will try to update it often.
This FAQ may not be used for anything other than non-profit, personal use.
If by any chance I granted permission to post this FAQ on other sites,
which is unlikely, I must be given full credit for my work.
Copyright Eli H. 2002
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Content :
I. 	Skill References
II	Skill Points
III. 	Natural Skills
IV. 	Characters With "S" Rank and/or 3 Rune Slots
V.	Rune Shops
VI. 	Rarity Items
        ~Rare Finds in Supply Shop/Defense Gear Shop
	~Rare Items from Monsters/Chest/Skeletons/People/Mini Games
	~Armors/Accessories with Status Protect
	~Armors/Accessories with Skill Bonus
	~Armors Set
VII.	Updates
VIII.	Credits


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I. Skill References

Before decide to learn a skill, it's better to see how's the aptitude of
a character toward the skills. The least point needed to learn a skill,
the better the result. However, this method does not always work,
mostly but not always. I have found some characters that have
highest aptitude did not result highest rank in their skill.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
~ Budehuc Castle ~
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Bujutsu Teacher : Juan
==============================================================
   Aptitudes		    Skill point needed	     Estimate
       			         to learn	       Rank
==============================================================
The results are amazing!   	      20	      A+ - S
Competent	                      30                A
It could be much worse	              40               B+
Absolutely Average		      50                B
It won't be easy		      60                C
--------------------------------------------------------------


Tutor : Ernie
============================================================
   Aptitudes		     Skill point needed	   Estimate
       			          to learn	     Rank
============================================================
Unbridled Potential!   	            20		    A+ - S
There's no denying talent           30                 A
Your mother would be proud          40	              B+
WOW! Just kidding--Average	    50                 B
It won't be easy		    60	               C
------------------------------------------------------------


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
~ All other areas ~
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Tutor:
------
Vinay del Zexay(Guild Hall,left door that leads to outside area)
Brass Castle
Budehuc Castle
Duck Village
Le Buque
Alma Kinan

Bujutsu Teacher:
----------------
Vinay del Zexay(Guild Hall,left door that leads to outside area)
Brass Castle
Budehuc Castle
Great Hollow
Caleria
Alma Kinan


Bujutsu Teacher / Tutor :
=========================================================
   Aptitudes		  Skill point needed    Estimate
       			      to learn	          Rank
=========================================================
Perfect Match!             	 20		 A+ - S
Fairly Good Match	         30		    A
Natural Ability Exists	         40		   B+
Average      		         50		    B
It will take time		 60		    C
----------------------------------------------------------

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
~ Support Character ~
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

There are Support Characters who can give you Education/Training.
Bring them in your party and access it by choosing
the "Tutor/Bujutsu" skill.


Tutor: Caesar
==========================================================
   Aptitudes		   Skill point needed	 Estimate
       			       to learn	           Rank
==========================================================
Infinite genius,like me!   	  20		  A+ - S
Nice, nice...	                  30		     A
I've heard of worse           	  40		     B+
A-V-E-R-A-G-E    		  50		     B
It won't be easy	          60		     C
-----------------------------------------------------------


Tutor : Hortez VII
==========================================================
   Aptitudes		   Skill point needed	 Estimate
       			       to learn	           Rank
==========================================================
Frigtheningly talented!   	  20		  A+ - S
You'll do well	                  30		     A
Could be handy           	  40		     B+
As plain as water		  50		     B
You'd have to struggle	          60		     C
-----------------------------------------------------------


Tutor: Iku
==========================================================
   Aptitudes		   Skill point needed	 Estimate
       			       to learn	           Rank
==========================================================
Brilliance personified!   	  20		  A+ - S
Noteworthy, noteworthy...         30		     A
Amusing, or useful? Hmmm...       40		     B+
Just one of the herd		  50		     B
An uphill battle at best...	  60		     C
-----------------------------------------------------------


Tutor : Nadir
=========================================================
   Aptitudes	          Skill point needed	Estimate
       			      to learn	          Rank
=========================================================
Top Ability!   	                 20              A+ - S
Good, very good....              30                 A
Could come in handy  	         40                B+
Average as can be                50                 B
Immense time required!           60	            C
---------------------------------------------------------


Bujutsu Teacher : Jefferson
==========================================================
   Aptitudes		   Skill point needed	 Estimate
       			       to learn	           Rank
==========================================================
Genius, baby, genius!   	  20		  A+ - S
Smokin!  	                  30		     A
It wouldn't be a waste         	  40		     B+
"Vanilla." You follow me?	  50		     B
An arduous task at best...        60		     C
-----------------------------------------------------------


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
II.  Skill Points

Education Center and Training Center have the same pattern
of required skill points.This tables below show how many skill points
you need to enhance your character skill.
There are two type of pattern I found out.
Note : I have not finished with this section yet, as it will be
updated more.

A. Where the Estimate Ranks are the same as the Actual Rank
_________________________________________________________________
	|	     Skill Points Needed                |Actual	|
Estimate|_______________________________________________| Rank	|
 Rank	|  E      D     C     B      B+      A      A+ 	|Result	|
________|_______________________________________________|_______|
    S	|  40    65     90   135    180     250    350 	|   S	|
    A	|  50    80    120   170    220      -      -	|   A	|
   B+	|  60    95    140   205     -       -      -  	|  B+	|
    B	|  75   115    170    -      -       -      -	|   B	|
    C	| 100   150     -     -      -       -      -	|   C	|
_________________________________________________________________


B. Where the Estimate Ranks are different from the Actual Rank
   There are some special cases where you will get different result
   other than the Estimate Ranks, although the odds are against it.
_________________________________________________________________
	|	     Skill Points Needed               	|Actual	|
Estimate|_______________________________________________| Rank	|
  Rank	|   E     D     C     B      B+     A     A+   	|Result	|
________|_______________________________________________|_______|
   S	|   40    65   120   190      -     -      -   	|  B+	|
  A+	|                 		 	     	|	|
   A	|         			               	|	|
  B+	|    			                       	|	|
   B	|    			                       	|	|
   C	|  100   150   200   250     300   350    -	|  A+	|
_________________________________________________________________


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
III. Characters With "S" Rank and/or 3 Rune Slots

I listed all the characters by alphabetical orders.
These characters reach "S" rank without accecories/armor.

_____________________________________________________
A-G
Alanis          -3 Rune Slots
Augustine	-Parry
Ayame           -Repel, Holy Dash
Emily		-Swing
Estella		-Fire Magic, 3 Rune Slots
Fred		-Shield Protect
Gadget Z	-Fighting Spirit

______________________________________________________
H-N
Hallec		-Swing
Hugo		-Repel
Jacques		-Sharpshoot
Joker           -3 Rune Slots
Juan	        -Heavy Damage, Continual Attack
Kenji           -Holy Dash
Landis		-Freeze, Thief, Magic Resistance
Leo		-Adrenaline Power, Damage, Armor Protect
Lucia           -3 Rune Slots
Mel		-Lighting Magic, 3 Rune Slots
Nei		-Chant Purity, Magic Resistance, 3 Rune Slots

_______________________________________________________
O-U
Piccolo         -3 Rune Slots
Rody		-Sword of Magic, 3 Rune Slots
Shabon          -3 Rune Slots
Toppo		-Chanting Volume

_______________________________________________________
V-Z
Viki 		-Blinking Magic, 3 Rune Slots
Y.Viki		-Blinking Magic, 3 Rune Slots
Wan Fu		-Adrenaline Power
Watari	 	-Counter-Attack, 3 Rune Slots
Yuiri           -3 Rune Slots


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IV. Natural Skills
    These are the skills that all the character learn by themself.


===========================================================================
|   Magic Skills   |                  Characters                          |
===========================================================================
| Chanting Volume  | Kenji  Nei  Toppo  Shabon  Sgt. Joe                  |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Chant Purity     | Kenji  Nei  Toppo  Shabon                            |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Blinking Magic   | Mel  Rody  Viki  Y.Viki                              |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Shield Magic     | Aila  Alanis  Belle  Nei  Percival  Queen  Rico      |
|                  | Sanae Y.  Viki  Y.Viki                               |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Pale Gate Magic  | Alanis  Estella  Joker  Mel  Piccolo  Viki  Y.Viki   |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Focus            | Estella  Joker  Piccolo                              |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Precision        | Alanis  Elaine  Rody                                 |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Magic Rationing  | Elaine  Rody   Sharon  Yuiri  Yumi                   |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Magic Repel      | Estella  Geddoe  Lucia  Wilder  Rhett                |
+------------------+------------------------------------------------------+


============================================================================
| Fighting Skills   |                 Characters                           |
============================================================================
| Parry             | Augustine  Chris  Futch  Gau  Geddoe  Hugo  Lilly    |
|                   | Sharon                                               |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Heavy Damage      | Borus  Chris  Duke  Emily  Hallec  Hugo  Juan  Lilly |
|                   | Sgt. Joe  Melville  Nash  Percival  Queen  Yuiri     |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Counter Attack    | Ayame  Duke  Edge  Hugo  Joker  Percival  Sanae Y.   |
|                   | Watari                                               |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Continual Attack  | Beecham  Hugo  Joker  Juan  Kenji  Koichi  Lucia     |
|                   | Nash                                                 |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Adreanaline Power | Fred  Hallec  Leo  Twaikin                           |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Shield Protect    | Fred  Mua  Nicolas  Sharon  Twaikin                                   |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Fighting Spirit   | Gadget Z  Leo  Rico  Samus  Shiba                    |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Freeze            | Aila  Bazba  Fubar  Geddoe  Landis  Reed             |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Sharpshoot        | Jacques  Roland  Yuiri  Yumi                                |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| Thief             | Ace  Landis                                          |
+-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+


===========================================================================
|  Support Skills   |                  Characters                         |
===========================================================================
| Appraisal         | Arthur/B  Eike/C  Guillaume/A  Mio/E  Muto/D        |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Bujutsu Teacher   | Jefferson/D  Juan/B+                                |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Tutor             | Caesar/E  Ernie/B+  Hortez VII/C  Iku/C  Nadir/D    |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Healing           | Anne/D  Iku/C  Jeane/E  Luce/E  Louis/E  Mio/B+     |
|                   | Sanae Y./D  Tuta/A+                                 |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Discount          | Ace/C  Bartz/C  Gordon/C  Luce/D  Martha/B  Nadir/D |
|                   | Goro/A                                              |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Trade-In          | Billy/D  Gordon/D  Kathy/E  Mike/C                  |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Bath              | Bartz/C  Goro/A+                                    |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Treasure Hunt     | Arthur/E  Elliot/D  Guillaume/E  Kidd/C  Koroku/E   |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Potch Finder      | Apple/D  Elliot/C  Guillaume/E  Sebastian/E         |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Rune Sage         | Jeane/A  Mike/C                                     |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Cook              | Anne/D  Billy/D  Mamie/A  Louis/D                   |
+-------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
V. Rune Shops


~ Vinay del Zexay ~
Fire
Lighting
Wind
Water
Earth

~ Guild Hall(Vinay del Zexay) ~
Viper
Great Hawk
Goss
Unicorn
Sword of Rage

~ Brass Castle ~
Titan
Viper
Goss
Great Hawk
Sword of Cyclone
Shield

~ Duck Village ~
Water
Earth
Goss
Unicorn
Lion
Kite
Skunk
Medicine
Wall (Supply/Item Shop)

~ Caleria ~
Wind
Titan
Lion
Kite

~ Alma Kinan ~
Fire
Wind
Water
Lighting
Earth
Jongleur

~ Le Buque ~
Fire
Lighting
Unicorn

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
VI. Rarity Items

~ Rare find in Supply Shop and Defense Gear Shop ~

Based on Old Book " Taraq Rare Lists"
============================================================================
|     Karaya Clan    |  Duck Village   | Vinay del Zexay                   |
============================================================================
| Lighting Leather   | Gold Beak       | Master Garb                       |
| Fish Badge         | Blue Ribbon     | Turtle Tunic                      |
|                    | Water Amulet    | Black Warrior Tunic               |
|                    | Wall Rune       | Premier Tunic                     |
|                    | Haziness Rune   | Lighting Leather                  |
|                    |                 | Thunderbolt Leather               |
|                    |                 | TrueByakko ChainMail              |
|                    |                 | Premier Armor                     |
|                    |                 | Wind Amulet                       |
|                    |                 | Yellow Scarf                      |
|                    |                 | Sunbeam Rune                      |
|                    |                 | Warrior Rune                      |
|                    |                 |                                   |
============================================================================
| Iksay Village      | Guild Hall(Council Bldg) | Alma Kinan               |
============================================================================
| Rose Brooch        | Flame Armor              | Wind Amulet              |
| Alertness Rune     | Byakko ChainMail         | Killer Rune              |
| Waking Rune        | TrueByakko ChainMail     | Haziness Rune            |
| Golden Hammer      | Guardian Shield          | Goddess Statue           |
|                    | Flame Amulet             |                          |
|                    | Gold Emblem              |                          |
|                    | Hunter Rune              |                          |
|                    | Rose Vase                |                          |
|                    | Painting: Knight         |                          |
|                    |                          |                          |
============================================================================
|         Caleria          |   Chisha Village   |      Great Hollow        |
============================================================================
| Premier Helm             | Silver White Rose  | Byakko ChainMail         |
| Guardian ChainMail       | Chief's Hat        | TrueByakko ChainMail     |
| Custom ChainMail         | Prosperity Hat     | Custom ChainMail         |
| True Thunderbolt Leather | Lion God Ring      | Thunderbolt Leather      |
| Gloves of Destiny        | Prosperity Ring    | Premier Tunic            |
| Thunder Amulet           | Wizard Rune        | Crown of Destiny         |
| White Rose Brooch        | Medal set #4       | Dragon Tail Ornament     |
| Wizard Rune              |                    | Moles Gloves             |                          |
|                          |                    | Counter Rune             |
|                          |                    | Violence Rune            |
|                          |                    |                          |
============================================================================
|      Brass Castle        |     Le Buque       |
=================================================
| Lighting Leather         | Winspun Armor      |
| Thunderbolt Leather      | Mole Shield        |
| TrueThunderbolt Leather  | Premier Casque     |
| Byakko ChainMail         | Custom Tunic       |
| Chaos Shield             | Thunder Amulet     |
| Mangosh                  | Pale Moon Casque   |
| Gold Emblem              | Counter Rune       |
| Wind Amulet              | Haziness Rune      |
| Thunder Amulet           |                    |
| Flame Amulet             |                    |
| Medicine Rune            |                    |
| Killer Rune              |                    |
| Wut-ts'ai Urn            |                    |
|                          |                    |
=================================================

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
~ Rare items from Monsters/Chests/Skeletons/People/Mini Games ~


1. Rare Items From Treasure Chest:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mt. Hei-Tou
-----------
Treasure Boss: Blue Crab
Blinking Rune	   -Treasure Chest
Double-Strike Rune -Treasure Chest
Chaos Shield       -Treasure Chest
Gold Beak	   -Treasure Chest
?Figurine	   -Gentian Vase.
?Painting	   -Sunset


Northern Cave
-------------
Treasure Boss: Chimera
Mother Earth      -Treasure Chest

Treasure Boss: Rock Golem
White Rose Brooch -Treasure Chest
?Statue	          -Hex Doll/Knight Statue. Treasure Chest.

Treasure Boss: GhostKnight
Stone of Luck    -Treasure Chest
?Statue          -Knight Statue S(1st time), Knight Stature
Pale Moon Casque -Def +26/Pale Moon Set


Mountain Path
-------------
Treasure Boss: Rock Golem
?Statue		  -Knight Statue/Hex Doll

Treasure Boss: GhostKnight
Stone of Speed    -Treasure Chest
Drain Rune        -Treasure Chest
Resistance Ring   -Treasure Chest
?Painting         -Sunset, Lady
Fury Rune         -Treasure Chest

Treasure Boss: Twin Snake(2nd)
Rage Rune         -Treasure Chest
Flame Casque      -Treasure Chest
Dragon Scale      -Treasure Chest
Recipe #20        -Chinese Banquet
?Painting         -Scroll Picture
?Figurine         -Plant Vase


FC Hideaway
-----------
Treasure Boss: Azzodess
?Painting	  -Ruins, Treasure Chest
?Statue		  -Hex Doll S/Knight Statue/Hex Doll, Treasure Chest
Stone of Evasion  -Treasure chest

Treasure Boss: Nemesis
Black Warrior Tunic -Def +48/Status Protect


Mt. Senai
---------
Treasure Boss: Nemesis
Stone of Skill    -Treasure Chest
Hunter Rune       -Treasure Chest
?Statue           -Goddess Statue S(1st time), Peeing Boy
Firefly           -Treasure Chest
Robe of Destiny   -Destiny Set, Treasure Chest


Cyndar/Sindar Ruins
-------------------
Treasure Boss: Copper Sun
Recipe #17        -Tofu HotPot
Champion's Rune   -No encounters with foes weaker than you
?Statue           -Dragon Statue S/


2. Rare Items From Monsters:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fire Sealing      -Yaza Plain. TrollDragon has it.
                   Invincible to Fire, DMGx2 from Water.
Blinking Rune     -FC Hideaway. A group of 3 Copper Sun and 1 Nariqua has it.
Pale Moon Casque  -Cyndar/Sindar Ruins. A group TrollDragons have it.
Flowing           -Cyndar/Sindar Ruins. Beat Water Dragon.
                   Major Victory in Battle at Brass Castle chapter 5.
Warrior Rune      -Ancient Highway. Copper Sun has it.
                   Half of REP capability switches to PWR.


3. Rare Items From People:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thunder          -Duck Village. Tutor place, talk to a girl with a cat/dog
Cyclone          -Chisha Trading Place, talk to a woman in the 2nd floor.
                  Go up the ladder.
Wind Magic Ring  -Mt.Senai. Win battle from Masked Bishop and Sarah in Geddoe
                  sidequest.
Drain Rune       -Kuput Forest. Beat Sarah in Chris sidequest.


4. Rare Items From Skeletons:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pale Gate Rune	  -FC Hideaway. First intersection, choose right,
                   it leads you to the dead end area. Search the skeleton.
Cyclone Rune      -Kuput Forest. Enter Kuput from Chisha Village, first
                   intersection choose right, it leads to dead end area.
                   Search the skeleton.


5. Rare Items From Mini Games:
-----------------------------
Tunic of Prosperity -Won from Billy's card game with 5000potch at stake.
Painting: Sky Owl   -Won complementary lottery at Iksay Village.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
~ Armors/Accessories with Status Protect ~
Turtle Tunic	      -Def +17/Status Protect
Black Warrior Tunic   -Def +48/Status Protect
Yellow Scraf          -Def +18/Status Protect


~ Armors/Accessories with Skill Bonus ~
Tulip Hat            -Def +3/Focus +1
Feather Band         -Def +4/Counter-Attack +1
Feathered Hat        -Def +8/Repel +1
Wizard Hat           -Def +10/Fire MGC +1/Lighting MGC +1
Crown of Destiny     -Def +14/Adrenaline Power +1
Wind Hat             -Def +19/Speed +10/Wind Resist/Wind MGC +1

Master Garb          -Def +46/Parry +1

Chaos Shield         -Def +34/Shield Defending +1
		      (I assume it's the same as Shield Protect)

Gold Emblem	     -Def +1/Magic Resistance +1
Rose Brooch          -Def +12/Swing +1
White Rose Brooch    -Def +18/Swing +2
Counter Ring         -Def +3/Counter-Attack +1
Evasion Ring         -Def +2/Repel +1
LightingMgcRing	     -Def +4/Lighting MGC +1
Resistance Ring      -Def +2/MGC Resist +1
Wind Magic Ring      -Def +/

~ Armors Set ~
1. Destiny Set
--------------
Crown of Destiny    -Def +14/Adrenaline Power +1
Robe of Destiny	    -Def +39/Adrenaline Power +1
Gloves of Destiny   -Def +9


2. Mole Set
-----------
Mole Helm           -coming soon
Mole Armor          -Def +14
Mole Shield         -Def +9
Mole Gloves         -Def +3


3. Prosperity Set
-----------------
Prosperity Hat      -Def +11/Find Treasure +1
Tunic of Prosperity -Def +55/Potch Finder +1
Prosperity Ring     -Def +4/Potch Finder +1


4. Guardian Set
---------------
Guardian Casque     -Def +20/Lighting Resist
Guardian ChainMail  -Def +45/WeakVsTrust/Water Resist
Guardian Shield     -Def +22/Wind Resist


5. Pale Moon Set
----------------
Pale Moon Casque    -Def +26
Pale Moon Leather   -coming soon
Pale Moon Necklace  -Def +8


NOTE: Most of this armors and accessories are sold in the rarity defense
      gear shop and supply shop. Some of them you got it from Treasure
      Boss and characters who equip it and few of them you won it from mini
      games.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
VII. Updates
  Version 1.0 - Itinial Released                        ~ November 18, 2002
  Version 1.1 - Updated section III, IV,and VI          ~ November 20, 2002
  Version 1.2 - Updated section II,III,IV, V, VI        ~ December 05, 2002
	        Added more rare items. Sorry for this late update, I've
                been sick, yea..it was lame.
  Version 1.3 - Updated section III, IV, and VI         ~ December 08, 2002
  Version 1.4 - Updated section I, IV, VI,              ~ December 27, 2002
                Fixed the section IV and VI layout
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
VIII. Credits

Konami
  Thank you so very much for making this GREAT game.

GameFAQs
  Thank you for all great FAQs which inspired me to write my own.

Suikoden III Message Board
  Thank you guys for helping me whenever I'm stuck.

For those who emailed me
  Thank you for all the critics, suggestions, and informations.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++