Taro Yoko: Great Concepts, Bad Writing

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  3. Taro Yoko: Great Concepts, Bad Writing

User Info: normalguycap

normalguycap
6 months ago#71
penaferus11 posted...
Yadxov posted...
When you say it didn't strike a chord, do you mean that it didn't emotionally resonate with you? Could you elaborate?



I felt that none of the characters or story elements really connected with me emotionally. They were too shallow. The original NieR got you invested in the prologue. I never was invested in this game. I was more emotionally invested before I played the game than after.

I was the same.
"Yes, you've reached the Batcave. Batman speaking."

User Info: Gh0st_Xer0

Gh0st_Xer0
6 months ago#72
MalakTawus posted...

For example, do you even understand what it means for 2B to ask A2 to save 9S? That is basically going against her own "Raison d'être", how can you say there is no character developement?
There are changes in almost all characters (deep changes too infact)......and whats ironic is that in this particular context even the examples that failed to change are actually bringing a powerful message 'cause in this story "change" is definitely not for granted, its something to conquer and even when you think its reached it could still end up being just an illusion (poor Pascal).

So yes, i could go more indeep and bring other examples why i completely disagree with your pov, but like i said im my previous post i doubt it would matter in the end since i have the impression that our pov is quite incompatible in the first place.


But the story flat out tells us that 2B hated having to kill 9S every time; it wasn't the purpose she wanted, and she clearly liked 9S from waaay back in the first area even. Once the systems requiring her to kill him fell apart, it's not a surprise she wouldn't want to do it, because she never really did want to in the first place.

And y'know, some sort of inner character building for 2B besides having the viewers piece together scenes and derive character from them would probably leave more of an impact too. Instead, we get this very linear progression for everyone.

2B cold and distant -> 2B cares about things, with everything in-between that basically feeling like the narrative equivalent of motion tweening between keyframes. Just a -painfully- slow onset of a single character trait for the entire game. It's not like there wasn't more that could be done; we know that 2B was really attached to the Commander and the mission of YorHa before the bunker blows, but that's about it. We don't get a sense of how she handled the fallout once it was over, because she's just immediately dealing with the virus on her own and then dies.

And basically every single character is like that. Trait 1 -> Revelation -> Trait 2 -> Roll Credits. And most characters are -lucky- if their character change is even brought about by a clear revelation of any kind I don't think for instance A2 was that fortunate. She just sorta "changes" because the plot requires her to be the level-headed savior to 9S' genocidal maniac.

And if you're NOT a main android character, you get it even worse. They're basically all cardboard cutouts with a single purpose until they hit their designated existential crisis, and all their character traits are immediately sucked away by a wave of despair that manifests in literally only ever 2 ways: 1) Genocidal rage, 2) Suicidal depression. NPC's for sidequests, Eve, Pascal, this game's Devola and Popla (who clearly never got over their imposed guilt and throw their lives away for it)I mean really, pick basically anyone. It's tragic the first time, it's trite the 15th time.

User Info: normalguycap

normalguycap
6 months ago#73
SypherCyath posted...
Sorta kinda agree here?

I believe the overall concept is greater than the actual dialogue or characters but I think the characters do have depth, just not spelled out in an expository fashion.

The plot and characters this game leaves so much open for speculation and discussion. If you think that's being lazy or shallow, that's OK. I personally think it's for the most part the style he wanted to achieve for this story.

The story and characters of the first Nier and Automata are done quite differently in my opinion.

When I play a game with great story, let's say the Witcher, Horizon, or The last of us, I do enjoy them a lot but there's really nothing to discuss with people afterwards. Because the conversation is just like "isn't that good or what" "yeah man that s***'s dope"
Stuff like Nier Automata may not wow me initially but it makes me want to think about it and ends up leaving me with a longer period of post game depression.

That just means you do the work that a good writer would have ultimately lead you to anyway. It's lazy or clever. It can be clever in that by having the player to the legwork, what they concoct in their own head will always be perfect, so from a marketing standpoint it's genius. You do less and they will still think your product is good. The Japanese have a history of doing this under the guise of "We want players to have their own experiences and come to their own conclusions" which is normally an excuse for writing themselves into a corner or just sloppy and laziness. I hate that trope so much.

I can use my imagination anytime for free. When I buy a game with money, I want a professionally crafted story.

In fact what your mind is actually doing is seeking closure for what the game did not give you.
"Yes, you've reached the Batcave. Batman speaking."

User Info: normalguycap

normalguycap
6 months ago#74
penaferus11 posted...
unknown_VS posted...
The end is really bad. Like Hollywood bad.
So maybe not so bad after all, I thought it was trash though



Ending E of NieR Automata was rehashed science fiction drivel. It's a total cop out. A true virtuoso of a writer would have driven the darkness of his story home by ending the game without life other than animals in the end. Besides, that silence would be more hopeful, imo. It would mean a clean slate for Earth, rather than "maybe it will repeat, maybe it won't." Lame.

Damn true!
"Yes, you've reached the Batcave. Batman speaking."

User Info: MalakTawus

MalakTawus
6 months ago#75
Gh0st_Xer0 posted...
But the story flat out tells us that 2B hated having to kill 9S every time; it wasn't the purpose she wanted, and she clearly liked 9S from waaay back in the first area even. Once the systems requiring her to kill him fell apart, it's not a surprise she wouldn't want to do it, because she never really did want to in the first place.

Just because she didnt want to do it, doesnt change the fact that she deliberately went against her raison d'être, you make it seems as if thats normal just because she didnt like it, but for an android doing something like that is NOT normal.
We have seen others in her position and even them didnt like their "job" one bit and we have seen how that ended up.....
Even 2B could never fight her "fate" multiple times, but at the very end she was able to make her statement.

Also its true that technically her own feelings were more or less the same since the very beginning, but how the hell is this relevant with "bad writing"? On the contrary id say that discovering that 2B cared so much about 9S since the very beginning and understanding why she acted so cold is actually more interesting and original, it wasnt her feeling about 9S that changed, it was her self-determination, that is her character growth and probably the real main theme in Automata that returns during the story in different forms and with different conclusions.

Gh0st_Xer0 posted...
And y'know, some sort of inner character building for 2B besides having the viewers piece together scenes and derive character from them would probably leave more of an impact too.


That's just your opinion and i disagree, Theese days almost all the stories are narrated in a very direct way and im actually very happy that Automata uses instead a different approach, it feels more unusual and more interesting......and considering how this game was received i'd say im not the only one appreciating this.


.......and reading the rest of your post makes it even more clear to me that you wanted from this game a story built in the typical way, exactly the same way that we see every single time.
Im so sorry for you if you feel that way, but imo you are just showing that you have a limited view.
You ask from this game to do all those things.........but why the hell should it even do it?
None of those things are the point, none of those things even fit the style and the atmosphere that this game, infact the real point is, like Jackass said, that between all the BS that all of them are doing to struggle and survive, at the very end has no point in the first place.

Also its a big fat lie that tragedy and despair (that no doubt are dominant in the whole story) manifest in just a couple of ways: beside the 2 you said, we have madness, we have death fighting till the very end, we have androids that reset their memories to adapt or to survive their pain, we have people that escape reality using drugs, we have someone that takes its own life 'cause he refuses his fate to hurt others, we have who accepts death simply 'cause they are already satified, we even have someone like Adam that almost seems to seek death out of curiosity, to experience even that part of "humanity"......this world is litterally submerged in despair and there is nothing wrong in that, infact the atmosphere is created so well that there is not even a tragic end that doesnt fit perfectly in that context.

In the end tragedy is everywhere 'cause in case you didnt notice the whole world is in a situation that to call it "super ultra mega s***ty" would be an understatement and if we add to that the fact that at the very end we find out that the game was rigged from the very beginning (both from androids and for "disconnected" machines) its naive to expect anything different from despair -_-
"Remember, you can make anything as idiot-proof as you want, they'll just build a better idiot...."

User Info: normalguycap

normalguycap
6 months ago#76
The whole 2B killing 9S thing was stupid. It only happened 3 times in the game and it was because of their missions and all 3 times it was 9S's suggestion.

1.) Prologue. Kill selves to complete mission and eliminate all hostile via black box. --where are they even storing those things. would have been neat to see a compartment open up.
2.) 9S infection or whatever after Eve -- how does choking even kill an android? Do they even need air? Why do they have blood only sometimes? Why does one stab kill them when they are freaking robots and should be able to tank all kinds of damage because they aren't vulnerable like humans.
3.) Kill selves to destroy corrupted Yorha and get back to base and report. ---no crater to speak of for their use of them either when the platform they were on before was vaporized. would have been nice to see consistency or a reminder of what they had to do. you know, makes sense.


Automata should have pushed for a meta commentary like Undertale did by restarting games resets the characters because of the player's actions. In fact, knowing that makes Ending E pathetic because there is no way they can have a different future since the game is linear and the player has no choice to change the cycle.

Nowhere is it said in game that 2B was assigned to 9S to kill him if he got too curious which is stupid because then if you don't want him discovering things, don't program curiosity. And if you really don't want the truth out then THE COMMANDER SHOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN HIM THE SECRET DATA ANYWAY NO STRINGS ATTACHED! Wouldn't that doom him? No, nothing came of it! So the 2E reveal amounts to nothing at all.


That's just your opinion and i disagree,
That's the ultimate get out of jail free card to providing a decent argument. Claims of subjectivity are the worst. Might as well not say anything in the first place.

This game was a fat mess. Arbitrary and juvenile and basic.
"Yes, you've reached the Batcave. Batman speaking."

User Info: MalakTawus

MalakTawus
6 months ago#77
If you fail to understand that its heavily implied that those 3 times are NOT the only times, thats on you -_-

.....also i wouldnt have used a "claim of subjectivity" if he didnt try to give his biased and personal opinion a general validation, not to mention that i already made a few posts here that are not one-line response, so id say i have already provided my own arguments.


.....anyway the more i read your posts in this topic the more they are ridiculous, you have clearly understood nothing about this game, congratz.
"Remember, you can make anything as idiot-proof as you want, they'll just build a better idiot...."

User Info: penaferus11

penaferus11
6 months ago#78
normalguycap posted...
The whole 2B killing 9S thing was stupid. It only happened 3 times in the game and it was because of their missions and all 3 times it was 9S's suggestion.

1.) Prologue. Kill selves to complete mission and eliminate all hostile via black box. --where are they even storing those things. would have been neat to see a compartment open up.
2.) 9S infection or whatever after Eve -- how does choking even kill an android? Do they even need air? Why do they have blood only sometimes? Why does one stab kill them when they are freaking robots and should be able to tank all kinds of damage because they aren't vulnerable like humans.
3.) Kill selves to destroy corrupted Yorha and get back to base and report. ---no crater to speak of for their use of them either when the platform they were on before was vaporized. would have been nice to see consistency or a reminder of what they had to do. you know, makes sense.


Automata should have pushed for a meta commentary like Undertale did by restarting games resets the characters because of the player's actions. In fact, knowing that makes Ending E pathetic because there is no way they can have a different future since the game is linear and the player has no choice to change the cycle.

Nowhere is it said in game that 2B was assigned to 9S to kill him if he got too curious which is stupid because then if you don't want him discovering things, don't program curiosity. And if you really don't want the truth out then THE COMMANDER SHOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN HIM THE SECRET DATA ANYWAY NO STRINGS ATTACHED! Wouldn't that doom him? No, nothing came of it! So the 2E reveal amounts to nothing at all.


That's just your opinion and i disagree,
That's the ultimate get out of jail free card to providing a decent argument. Claims of subjectivity are the worst. Might as well not say anything in the first place.

This game was a fat mess. Arbitrary and juvenile and basic.


People think subjectivity is the end all arguments answer. These short responses are from tools who don't think deeply enough to question anything. It got a high Metacritic and was created by a guy with rabid fanboys. It's funny how these people see Taro as a virtuoso story teller when all or most of his stories are mashed together rehash from other science fiction.

User Info: KiryuinsDoorMat

KiryuinsDoorMat
6 months ago#79
Gh0st_Xer0 posted...
It's tragic the first time, it's trite the 15th time.


This pretty much sums up I how ended up feeling throughout the game.

I'm not saying the writing was great or terrible. But it honestly didn't take very long for me to stop responding to the story or sidequests because it keep hammering on the same emotional notes.
http://i.imgur.com/37zXxKl.gif

User Info: MalakTawus

MalakTawus
6 months ago#80
penaferus11 posted...
normalguycap posted...
The whole 2B killing 9S thing was stupid. It only happened 3 times in the game and it was because of their missions and all 3 times it was 9S's suggestion.

1.) Prologue. Kill selves to complete mission and eliminate all hostile via black box. --where are they even storing those things. would have been neat to see a compartment open up.
2.) 9S infection or whatever after Eve -- how does choking even kill an android? Do they even need air? Why do they have blood only sometimes? Why does one stab kill them when they are freaking robots and should be able to tank all kinds of damage because they aren't vulnerable like humans.
3.) Kill selves to destroy corrupted Yorha and get back to base and report. ---no crater to speak of for their use of them either when the platform they were on before was vaporized. would have been nice to see consistency or a reminder of what they had to do. you know, makes sense.


Automata should have pushed for a meta commentary like Undertale did by restarting games resets the characters because of the player's actions. In fact, knowing that makes Ending E pathetic because there is no way they can have a different future since the game is linear and the player has no choice to change the cycle.

Nowhere is it said in game that 2B was assigned to 9S to kill him if he got too curious which is stupid because then if you don't want him discovering things, don't program curiosity. And if you really don't want the truth out then THE COMMANDER SHOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN HIM THE SECRET DATA ANYWAY NO STRINGS ATTACHED! Wouldn't that doom him? No, nothing came of it! So the 2E reveal amounts to nothing at all.


That's just your opinion and i disagree,
That's the ultimate get out of jail free card to providing a decent argument. Claims of subjectivity are the worst. Might as well not say anything in the first place.

This game was a fat mess. Arbitrary and juvenile and basic.


People think subjectivity is the end all arguments answer. These short responses are from tools who don't think deeply enough to question anything. It got a high Metacritic and was created by a guy with rabid fanboys. It's funny how these people see Taro as a virtuoso story teller when all or most of his stories are mashed together rehash from other science fiction.


Yes, because in the end the only ones that can see the truth are people like you, lets completely ignore the fact that the game gained amazing results between both critics and players, lets ignore all the people that fell in love with this game and before Automata hadnt ever heard about Yoko Taro, im pretty sure that we all are mindless sheeps that cant recognize good games, you rare people should be honored and your opinions should be lifted above all the others, oh wise ones!
"Remember, you can make anything as idiot-proof as you want, they'll just build a better idiot...."
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