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Why does God let good things happen to atheists and bad things to religious ppl?

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User Info: fudrick

fudrick
6 years ago#101
KNessJM posted...
Both have a history of being used as medicine in this way (i.e. a small amount diluted by another, usually benign, substance). Cocaine is a very effective anesthetic, and many modern topical anesthetics are derived from it. And, of course, opiates play a big role in many modern painkillers.

Yeah, morphine use is completely accepted as a painkiller, and it's really the same thing as heroin.
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User Info: fudrick

fudrick
6 years ago#102
kozlo100 posted...
On what basis do you put it on the 'hard' end of a spectrum that involves things like cocaine, meth, heroin, and so forth?

Possibility of physical harm, level of impairment of the senses and ability to function properly, addiction potential. I'm not sure what other criteria I should be using.

I'd be interested in an elaboration upon the "and so forth" you appended to the end of this sentence.

kozlo100 posted...
I mean, we're talking about a drug that well over half the population of the US uses, generally with no negative side effects worse than a bacon cheeseburger.

So alcohol poisoning, drunk driving, and alcohol addiction are non-issues?

kozlo100 posted...
If that is a hard drug, what is a soft one?

Cannabis, any psychedelic excluding ketamine, MDMA, many weak drugs like caffeine.

What drugs do you consider "harder" than alcohol? Do you think there are more drugs that are harder than alcohol, or more than are softer than alcohol?
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User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
6 years ago#103
So alcohol poisoning, drunk driving, and alcohol addiction are non-issues?

In the vast majority of instances that alcohol is consumed, yes.

Cannabis, any psychedelic excluding ketamine, MDMA, many weak drugs like caffeine.

So you use level of impairment of the senses to qualify alcohol as hard, but list drugs that cause you to literally see things that aren't there as soft. I'm not sure I understand that. One standard dose of alcohol causes next to no impairment whatsoever, but one dose of LSD or psilocybin will cause hallucination.

What drugs do you consider "harder" than alcohol? Do you think there are more drugs that are harder than alcohol, or more than are softer than alcohol?

PCP, barbiturates, cocaine, crack, heroin, ketamine, LSD, meth, salvia, psilocybin, morphine, vicodin. That's not an exhaustive list, but I think it's good enough for this discussion. The general idea being that, dose for dose, they have more profound effects than alcohol.

Clearly, my position is that alcohol is on the soft end of the spectrum, but with a term like 'drug' we could probably stack the deck to get the actual number of substances to be larger on either side if we tried.
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick

User Info: fudrick

fudrick
6 years ago#104
kozlo100 posted...
In the vast majority of instances that alcohol is consumed, yes.

Which can be said for most negative effects of most drugs.

kozlo100 posted...
So you use level of impairment of the senses to qualify alcohol as hard, but list drugs that cause you to literally see things that aren't there as soft. I'm not sure I understand that.

Note that the drugs I listed have virtually no potential for addiction or physical harm, while alcohol has a significant potential for both. I would still say that alcohol impairs vision more than most hallucinogens, unless you're taking some huge dose or something... though a huge dose of alcohol causes you to pass out, which is a pretty big visual impairment.

kozlo100 posted...
One standard dose of alcohol causes next to no impairment whatsoever, but one dose of LSD or psilocybin will cause hallucination.

Have you ever used LSD or mushrooms? If not, you may not have a very good understanding of the types of hallucinations low doses of those drugs cause. If you were to take an amount of mushrooms or LSD that would be comparable to a dose of alcohol that would cause "next to no impairment whatsoever," you'd be seeing brighter colors, and that's pretty much it.

kozlo100 posted...
PCP, barbiturates, cocaine, crack, heroin, ketamine, LSD, meth, salvia, psilocybin, morphine, vicodin. That's not an exhaustive list, but I think it's good enough for this discussion. The general idea being that, dose for dose, they have more profound effects than alcohol.

I'd agree with everything but LSD, psilocybin, and salvia, based on the criteria I posted. Salvia does have a more profound mental effect, so you're right on that, but when talking about hard and soft drugs it only makes sense to me to consider potential for addiction and physical harm.
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User Info: fudrick

fudrick
6 years ago#105
Alcohol also affects the way you act more than almost any drug.
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User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
6 years ago#106
I agree with talking level of addiction and physical harm into account, but my main point is that it should be a dose for dose comparison. One beer, one shot, one hit of LSD, one joint. I know you can take a sufficiently small dose of shrooms so as to have barely any effect, but that's not the conventional dose that is taken.

Though now that I think about it, the ramp up rate for increased doses might be good to consider as well. 6 beers vs 6 hits of LSD, 6 grams of mushrooms, 6 joints, 6 tabs of Ecstasy. That sort of thing.

Alcohol also affects the way you act more than almost any drug.

I'm gonna have to see a citation on that one.

Still, I was just trying to understand your classification, not prove it wrong, and I think I have a handle on it now. I still disagree with it, but that's not very important as long as I understand where you're coming from.
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick

User Info: rockthespock

rockthespock
6 years ago#107

From: kozlo100 | #106
Though now that I think about it, the ramp up rate for increased doses might be good to consider as well. 6 beers vs 6 hits of LSD, 6 grams of mushrooms, 6 joints, 6 tabs of Ecstasy. That sort of thing.


You can't exactly compare 6 beers with 6 LSD tabs. More like 60 beers vs 6 LSD tabs. Remember, we're talking effective dose, not weakest dose.

How hard a drug is is generally measured in effect, addiction and damage. Most psychedelics cause no damage and no addiction, so they cannot be considered hard drugs. Alcohol however, can get you wasted, can cause addiction that makes it lethal to quit and damages the body quite much if you drink enough to get drunk.
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User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
6 years ago#108
More like 60 beers vs 6 LSD tabs.

This is exactly the point I was making. If it takes 60 beers, hyperbole aside, to get equal impairment to 6 LDS tabs, that says something about the relative hardness of the drugs, in my opinion.
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick

User Info: rockthespock

rockthespock
6 years ago#109

From: kozlo100 | #108
This is exactly the point I was making. If it takes 60 beers, hyperbole aside, to get equal impairment to 6 LDS tabs, that says something about the relative hardness of the drugs, in my opinion.


That's something about the dosage. If you drink 99% alcohol, you'd get wasted quite fast compared to if you were drinking beer.
LSD can be taken in smaller doses, such as a quarter blotter instead of a whole.

You could probably take 100x the effective dose of LSD and live, but try drinking 100x the effective dose of alcohol. You'd be 100% dead.
Rock the Spock with your chains, with my knees, from my knees and daddy!
#110
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