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12 year old tortured to cure his homosexuality

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User Info: kts123

kts123
6 years ago#81
Evolution is a scientific theory, Christianity is a religious belief system. The way a person comes to believe in the former is radically different from the way one comes to believe in the latter. I havent read enough of this thread to know the context, but aside from both being something that people believe in, they really arent comparable in any way.

The TC said:

"How do you defend a belief system when it spawns this? Even if it's a perversion of the belief system...it still causes it. It is still THE reason people are brought up to be less than people."

The counter point is that lots of belief systems have been perverted to support atrocities, yet that doesn't stop us from utilizing those systems, nor does anyone question our using of those beliefs. Saying "that's different, evolution has lots of evidence!" doesn't change the point: we do not accept or reject evolution over what murderers have used it to justify, nor should we accept or reject Christianity over what murderers have used it to justify. Now when you say "but evolution has lots of evidence," you're re-stating the fact we have not accepted or rejected evolution over the holocaust, but over the arguments surrounding it. If you want to give this privilege to evolution, but not other beliefs, you're resorting to "special pleading."

"If a murderer uses a system to justify something evil, ask yourself: Is it a religious system or scientific system? If it's a scientific theory, then judge the theory based off of the arguments surrounding it. If it's a religious belief, then judge it based off of what the murderer did."

User Info: kts123

kts123
6 years ago#82
No, they are not.

Okay, so what is evolution?

User Info: fudrick

fudrick
6 years ago#83
kts123 posted...
Darwin is to evolution as Christ is to Christianity. People who accept evolution and teach it are as people who accept Christianity and teach it. Both have a founder (Darwin, Jesus) both have people who perpetuate the beliefs of the founder (Zoologists, Christians) and both systems have been perverted (in the holocaust, in torturing gays.)

Well, no; people don't worship Darwin as a god, despite what some pastors may say.

kts123 posted...
If you want to question how Christians can follow Christianity when it can be perverted to support torturing gays, then you must ask how zoologists can follow evolution when it can be perverted to support torturing Jews.

They don't "follow" evolution. They study it, or maybe teach about it. They don't advocate doing anything differently in day-to-day life due to the the fact that populations of organisms tend to evolve over time.

kts123 posted...
El_Rez's point was that the perversion of a belief does not reflect the belief or those who perpetuate it, by showing concepts in zoology have also been perverted to support the holocaust. Fudrick then threw up a red herring by saying "no one is blaming Jesus for what happened." Which is wholly and entirely not the point El_Rez was trying to address. What I said was not an analogy, it's the exact line of reasoning used by the TC applied to a different belief.

"How do you defend a belief system [evolution] when it spawns this [the holocaust]? Even if it's a perversion of the belief system [evolution]...it still causes it [the holocaust]."

Also I think I see a slight misunderstanding with my other post. When I'm putting together Darwin and Jesus, zoologists and Christians, evolution and Christianity, it's because Fudrick contested what El_Rez said by bringing up Darwin and Jesus. El_Rez was focused on the people who perpetuate the beliefs (evolution, Christianity) not the people who are responsible for the beliefs.

Fudrick, not me, put Darwin and Jesus together for comparison:

"Alright, so it would make sense to say that a perversion of the phrase "survival of the fittest" was used to justify the holocaust, not that Charles Darwin is personally responsible for it. Just as TC didn't say that Jesus was personally responsible for this situation." - Fudrick.

See, El_Rez isn't referring to founders, he's referring to people who perpetuate the belief and what the beliefs have been used to justify. Fudrick made a red herring when he tried to toss things off to be about Darwin and Jesus. It's also pretty similar to a straw man.

And of course, seeing as how Jesus created Darwin, there are definitely some glaring differences between the two.


No, learn to read. El_Rez brought up Darwin.

kts123 posted...
As for comparing Darwin and Jesus, Fudrick decided to bring that up, I only continued his own line of reasoning to show the issues with it.

Again, El_Rez brought it up, and my only "line of reasoning" was that no one is blaming Jesus for this occurrence.
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User Info: kts123

kts123
6 years ago#84
They don't "follow" evolution. They study it, or maybe teach about it. They don't advocate doing anything differently in day-to-day life due to the the fact that populations of organisms tend to evolve over time.

And there are those who taught it during the holocaust, while it was being twisted to support such atrocities. So when the TC says "How do you defend a belief system when it spawns this? Even if it's a perversion of the belief system...it still causes it." It's because rational people don't let their emotions cloud their judgement when murderers pervert beliefs.

User Info: fudrick

fudrick
6 years ago#85
kts123 posted...
The counter point is that lots of belief systems have been perverted to support atrocities, yet that doesn't stop us from utilizing those systems, nor does anyone question our using of those beliefs. Saying "that's different, evolution has lots of evidence!" doesn't change the point: we do not accept or reject evolution over what murderers have used it to justify, nor should we accept or reject Christianity over what murderers have used it to justify. Now when you say "but evolution has lots of evidence," you're re-stating the fact we have not accepted or rejected evolution over the holocaust, but over the arguments surrounding it. If you want to give this privilege to evolution, but not other beliefs, you're resorting to "special pleading."

"If a murderer uses a system to justify something evil, ask yourself: Is it a religious system or scientific system? If it's a scientific theory, then judge the theory based off of the arguments surrounding it. If it's a religious belief, then judge it based off of what the murderer did."


The theory of evolution is not meant to be a model for a better life. It does not claim to be the absolute moral truth. It doesn't advocate any specific actions in any way. All of those things apply to christianity, though.
Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious

User Info: fudrick

fudrick
6 years ago#86
kts123 posted...
And there are those who taught it during the holocaust, while it was being twisted to support such atrocities. So when the TC says "How do you defend a belief system when it spawns this? Even if it's a perversion of the belief system...it still causes it." It's because rational people don't let their emotions cloud their judgement when murderers pervert beliefs.

It isn't a belief system, it's an explanation of natural phenomena.
Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious

User Info: kts123

kts123
6 years ago#87
The theory of evolution is not meant to be a model for a better life. It does not claim to be the absolute moral truth. It doesn't advocate any specific actions in any way. All of those things apply to christianity, though.

Abstract models work like this:

We have the high levels of abstraction where the two intersect:
Christianity and evolution are things for which someone must learn of them. That is, they heavily involve non-axiomatic knowledge. Christianity and evolution may or may not reflect reality, etc.

We have lower levels of abstraction where the two do not intersect:
Christianity is a belief in which morals are given. Evolution is a scientific theory in which we interpret natural phenomenon.

Now here's the big, fat, important catch: All of the major differences you keep outlining are at lower levels of abstraction. A red circle and a blue triangle are both shapes, no matter how much you detail the differences. At the highest level of abstraction, we are left with two "shapes." That is, two specific sub-classes of the same fundamental parent class. Both have area, both have perimeter, etc. (Under specific types of euclidean geometry, please don't kill me math buffs.)

My point is, at the most fundamental level, they are things which may or may not be true. And when evaluating ideas (IDEAS, one of the most abstract levels) we must understand that twisted versions do not detract from the truth-value of the untwisted idea. This happens at the high levels of abstraction, where the square and the triangle are seen to be related sub classes of the same underlying parent class. So detailing the differences between the two does not change this upper level of relation, and pointing out the differences that occur at a lower level of abstraction is like saying a blue triangle and a green circle cannot have their area compared because they have different colors and number of sides.
the final bahamut 6 years ago#88
And there are those who taught it during the holocaust, while it was being twisted to support such atrocities. So when the TC says "How do you defend a belief system when it spawns this? Even if it's a perversion of the belief system...it still causes it." It's because rational people don't let their emotions cloud their judgement when murderers pervert beliefs.

You defend it because the only reason Nazies or other Eugenic Racists of the time could get anything near the message they were giving was by misunderstanding the vast majority of it, ignoring a f***load of biology and making most of it up. If you want to use this sort of people and evolution scientists in your comparison, then saying mainstream Christianity and Christianity-fueled homophobia won't work. You need mainstream Christians and the sort of people who say that Jesus was an alien envoy from Lord Xenu III.



Also, you've yet to relate to the much more important tidbit in my post: The fact that "evolutionists" - to use that moronic term - do in fact actively distance themselves from Hitler and that a LOT of active work is being done to combat ideas like eugenic racism, and that any mention of eugenics never ever enter the fray without a LOT of controversy.
E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.

User Info: kts123

kts123
6 years ago#89
Also, you've yet to relate to the much more important tidbit in my post: The fact that "evolutionists" - to use that moronic term - do in fact actively distance themselves from Hitler and that a LOT of active work is being done to combat ideas like eugenic racism, and that any mention of eugenics never ever enter the fray without a LOT of controversy.

Come down to the Bible Belt. Most Christians are fighting homophobia on a daily basis. It's just that the loudmouthed ones get all the media attention. Your far end of the spectrum church acceptable "homophobic" is only against gay marriage at the most, people who go farther than that are generally considered nutjobs.

You defend it because the only reason Nazies or other Eugenic Racists of the time could get anything near the message they were giving was by misunderstanding the vast majority of it, ignoring a f***load of biology and making most of it up. If you want to use this sort of people and evolution scientists in your comparison, then saying mainstream Christianity and Christianity-fueled homophobia won't work. You need mainstream Christians and the sort of people who say that Jesus was an alien envoy from Lord Xenu III.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. But, most Christians are probably more grieved by this sort of stuff than you, because we're the ones that take all the heat over what a few nut jobs did. Not to mention, it's rather worrying, considering our Holy Book tells us we're going to be badly mistreated, so seeing a few nuts fueling the fire is rather concerning. And to top it off, it's down right disgusting to begin with. I felt like punching someone when I read about what happened to Allan Turing. But letting anger control thinking isn't a good idea, so I can really only leave this at two things: As a Christian, I'm disgusted by what they did in the name of God, and I've personally made it a point to contest people who take the anti-gay message too far (which I can immediately recall doing, in person, at least twice this year.)

But these nut jobs aren't going to make God stop existing, so yes, I'll keep perpetuating his message even if people are perverting it, because it's true.
the final bahamut 6 years ago#90
Come down to the Bible Belt. Most Christians are fighting homophobia on a daily basis. It's just that the loudmouthed ones get all the media attention. Your far end of the spectrum church acceptable "homophobic" is only against gay marriage at the most, people who go farther than that are generally considered nutjobs.

That's funny, because I know that's a bulls*** lie.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.

Really? Because I think it was pretty damn clear that I was saying that Nazies understood about as much Evolution as Michael Bay understands the "Less is more" principle.

But, most Christians are probably more grieved by this sort of stuff than you, because we're the ones that take all the heat over what a few nut jobs did.

Well, in that case I grieve more because my grief isn't about selfishly covering my ass. My grief is for each and every young person who has to grow up in a hell-on-earth.

Not to mention, it's rather worrying, considering our Holy Book tells us we're going to be badly mistreated, so seeing a few nuts fueling the fire is rather concerning. And to top it off, it's down right disgusting to begin with. I felt like punching someone when I read about what happened to Allan Turing. But letting anger control thinking isn't a good idea, so I can really only leave this at two things: As a Christian, I'm disgusted by what they did in the name of God, and I've personally made it a point to contest people who take the anti-gay message too far (which I can immediately recall doing, in person, at least twice this year.)

Yeah, that sounded all nice and goody good, and I was about to say something nice about you, until I got to the bolded part.
No cookie for you.

But these nut jobs aren't going to make God stop existing, so yes, I'll keep perpetuating his message even if people are perverting it, because it's true.

And meanwhile, your nice nice religion is going to continue to get people killed, maimed, mutilated, raped and many other fun fun things.
E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.
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