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I like to think of "God" vs "Satan" as a morally neutral struggle.

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  3. I like to think of "God" vs "Satan" as a morally neutral struggle.

User Info: CuddleWithClaws

CuddleWithClaws
5 years ago#11
Congratulations you have given Satan what he has always wanted putting he and God on the same level. I want you to think of just how silly that is. Seriously dude?

You are coming at this from a traditional Christian standpoint. I'm not even directly referencing any religion in particular. Hence the quotation marks around God and Satan. The "good" force of the universe vs. the proclaimed "bad" force of the universe. Whatever you want to call them. To a moral skeptic, these notions are absurd.

Anyways.

I currently do not subscribe to religion. I already said this. This means I don't believe in Satan. I am not giving anyone anything. I'm just commenting on how I would find such a setup so aesthetically appealing.

Have you not read Ezikiel it gives a history about Satan and it says he wants to be worshipped as God. People just stating stuff like this cracks me up.

I acknowledge that parts of it are very beautiful, but a great deal of the Bible is essentially meant to be one big ego-trip inflating the name and actions of God. Parallel this with the media and cultural inflation of KJI, which did in fact cause many N. Koreans to think that KJI was a deity on earth (even though some of them only paid homage to him out of fear), and some to think that he still is. Those in control get to dictate the messages sent to their subjects. Even if the Bible was "true" (I use that term loosely), I hardly think that Satan was represented in a wholly unbiased manner.

Were I the religious sort, I seriously think it would be very interesting to be in the same room (figuratively) as both God and Satan, having a good chat with the both of them.
There must be hope.

User Info: Ivashanko

Ivashanko
5 years ago#12
Well, then, I'll give him more than he was hoping for. Satan is morally superior to god. At least he doesn't damn people for eternity.

The idea of eternal damnation (as well as its counter part, child baptism) wasn't around until centuries after the birth of Christianity. Origenists believe in universal salvation, Catholics believe in purgatory (Biblically indefensible, but it can be somewhat reconciled by equating to to the Jewish She'ol), the Russian Orthodox faith (extremely simplistically) holds that in many ways Hell is simply Earth without God, rather than a place of eternal torture, and many Christians believe in the complete destruction of the soul when it enters the Lake of Fire, which I, for one, believe is a superior fate to never ending torment.

I agree with you when you say that a creature that damns anything forever is morally reprehensible, and I will never be able to understand those who can actively reconcile Christianity to such a belief. Calvinists in particular confuse me.

User Info: wolf_blitzer85

wolf_blitzer85
5 years ago#13
falcon712 posted...
Congratulations you have given Satan what he has always wanted putting he and God on the same level. I want you to think of just how silly that is. Seriously dude?

I'm pretty sure The Fall of Mankind was not some misunderstanding about eating an apple. Some pretty serious conversation was needed to convince Adam to give the big finger to the creator of everything.
It would be like me telling my dad "Sorry. But I'd rather be a drug dealer than take your allowance. Oh, and I stole the car last week and crashed it on purpose. It wasn't a random criminal act".
Note absurdity of story but probable absurdity of justification of going against God.

Far421 posted...
falcon712 posted...
Congratulations you have given Satan what he has always wanted putting he and God on the same level. I want you to think of just how silly that is. Seriously dude?


Well, then, I'll give him more than he was hoping for. Satan is morally superior to god. At least he doesn't damn people for eternity.

I'm pretty sure that Judaism and Christianity can both agree that following a few simple laws (OK, exactly 613 if you're Jewish. That is a bit crazy) is not a bad bargain compared to eternal damnation.
It's not over yet, America! In 2014, we sweep the Tea Party OUT of the House and re-take it. For 'Merikuh! For Freedom!

User Info: Lord_Ichmael

Lord_Ichmael
5 years ago#14
The Old Testament indicates that both God and Satan are really evil. God a fair bit more so, though.

User Info: wolf_blitzer85

wolf_blitzer85
5 years ago#15
Lord_Ichmael posted...
The Old Testament indicates that both God and Satan are really evil. God a fair bit more so, though.

And everything in the Old Testament is told from Mankind's point of view (The New Testament has a bit of God bias...)
At one point, humans ate other humans, had sex with their underage children, and liked disco music.
Obviously, the views of the ancient humans toward God should be taken with a grain of salt. Don't you think?
It's not over yet, America! In 2014, we sweep the Tea Party OUT of the House and re-take it. For 'Merikuh! For Freedom!

User Info: CuddleWithClaws

CuddleWithClaws
5 years ago#16
Some pretty serious conversation was needed to convince Adam to give the big finger to the creator of everything.
It would be like me telling my dad "Sorry. But I'd rather be a drug dealer than take your allowance. Oh, and I stole the car last week and crashed it on purpose. It wasn't a random criminal act".


To be honest, you don't have to be a complete dick to not agree / go along with a parental figure. I absolutely detest the idea that just because someone spawned you, that you are impelled to do as they tell you. Obviously there are moments when a child is young that the parents do in fact know what is best for the child, and it is in the child's best interests to go along. But just because a person is someone's child, does NOT mean that the child will never know what's best for themselves. We grow up. We learn. If God is truly to be compared to a parental figure, then it should be the same. We should be able to follow whatever path we choose, even if it should lead away from God, and remain loved. Because if the Bible is right, we're all going back someday anyway. If God gets upset because some of us don't acknowledge or follow it, then it's nothing I'd ever consider worshipping.

Obviously I do some of the things my parents ask me to do, because I am thankful for all they've done for me. Hell, I help my parents a lot. But I do those things because I want to / feel like it, not because I am compelled to. I can say "no" to my parents and feel no guilt - I have many times. Parents shouldn't raise their children expecting to someday get a high lording their influence over their offspring.

Obviously, the views of the ancient humans toward God should be taken with a grain of salt. Don't you think?

...the NT isn't exactly contemporary, either.
There must be hope.

User Info: Far421

Far421
5 years ago#17
wolf_blitzer85 posted...

Far421 posted...
falcon712 posted...
Congratulations you have given Satan what he has always wanted putting he and God on the same level. I want you to think of just how silly that is. Seriously dude?


Well, then, I'll give him more than he was hoping for. Satan is morally superior to god. At least he doesn't damn people for eternity.

I'm pretty sure that Judaism and Christianity can both agree that following a few simple laws (OK, exactly 613 if you're Jewish. That is a bit crazy) is not a bad bargain compared to eternal damnation.


I don't care whether people think it is a good or bad bargain. Eternal damnation for not following some one being's laws is not only tyranny, but punishment far exceeding the crime. Any god that partakes in it is a disgusting monster that makes Hitler look like a pretty nice guy, and anyone that worship such a god despite having realized that he does this is reprehensible.
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User Info: CS_Goodman_

CS_Goodman_
5 years ago#18
Ancient Judaism (of which Christianity is a sect) wasn't dualistic in this way - the unique and almighty God has no rival or equal. OT scripture depicts the fallen angels ("Satan") as ankle biters whose power consists in (1) appealing to God's sense of justice to judge the disobedient among his creation (since God had already judged the angels for their own disobedience); and (2) challenging God's honor (i.e. the case in Job).

For Christianity, the dynamics of this relationship changed, Jesus' work at Calvary having crippled the fallen angels' power to accuse the servants of God. One of the great climaxes of scripture is that, in the end, God rendered Satan impotent.
"Hey! Don't piss off the god of love!" - Dende

User Info: lasthero

lasthero
5 years ago#19
I'm pretty sure The Fall of Mankind was not some misunderstanding about eating an apple. Some pretty serious conversation was needed to convince Adam to give the big finger to the creator of everything.

Serious conversation? Where'd you get that from?

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.


The Bible doesn't even say Adam knew what he was eating, much less that it took any real goading from Eve for him to do it. When God asks Adam about it, all he says is that she gave it to him.

Besides, it's not like it took any serious conversation for the snake to convince Eve. Why do you think it would be harder for Adam?
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User Info: Dathrowed1

Dathrowed1
5 years ago#20
lasthero posted...
I'm pretty sure The Fall of Mankind was not some misunderstanding about eating an apple. Some pretty serious conversation was needed to convince Adam to give the big finger to the creator of everything.

Serious conversation? Where'd you get that from?

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.


The Bible doesn't even say Adam knew what he was eating, much less that it took any real goading from Eve for him to do it. When God asks Adam about it, all he says is that she gave it to him.

Besides, it's not like it took any serious conversation for the snake to convince Eve. Why do you think it would be harder for Adam?


The bible says that Adam wasn't deceived, he knew what was up
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