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How does an omniscient God know he's omniscient?

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User Info: Moorish_Idol

4 years ago#221
That's fine, but you don't need to be so condescending about it.

User Info: Thuggernautz

4 years ago#222
kozlo100 posted...

I left that quote in because something they said something in a way that helps illustrate the point. Specifically the bit about 'observable'. They're acknowledging that they can't see everything.

Where the problem comes in is that knowing how many atoms are in the universe doesn't tell you a thing about how many atoms there are that aren't in the universe. If there is another universe that isn't observable by you, you'll come to the conclusion that you know everything because you know about all the atoms you can see, but you've still missed all those atoms in the other universe that you can't see, and thus don't know is there.

I feel like Kozlo's post got overlooked, so I'm reposting it. It very concisely sums up the issue with any claims of omniscience.

User Info: Thuggernautz

4 years ago#223
myzz7 posted...

The type of proof I can offer you for an eternal omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God can only be done so in conceptual logic.

Exactly. So, as I said, you are ascribing purely conceptual powers and knowledge to a purely conceptual being. Anyone can do that. Here, let me show you.

Our concept of God was the result of an eternal war between the two deities Glob Glob and Smeelor. The two deities were actually one deity with schizophrenia, and their battle was purely in the mind. Together, they were omniscient and omnipotent. After an immeasurable length of time, they decided the only recourse was to create a universe with one other sentient being and see how they acted in order to determine what their future existence would be like. And so, they spawned God the Creator in the void and ensured that God could not in any way detect them. When God appeared, he observed that he was all that existed, and had the power to do whatever he wanted. God was lonely by himself and decided to create the Universe. etc etc he ended up sacrificing himself to himself and never appeared again.

Now, in God's mind, he is absolutely 100% all that exists and all that has ever existed. His omniscience is total in relation to himself, and he thinks he is omnipotent, because he can do whatever he wants and no-one is there to stop him. He also doesn't know that he was created, having just appeared alone in himself for who knows how long. He tells all his newly created followers he has those traits. They choose to believe him, despite never being able to know whether that is true or not.

And therein lies the problem with conceptual logic. Everything I just wrote is perfectly valid. I could think of potentially infinite perfectly valid logical scenarios, but that does not make them true. The same objections which you will have to my story, are the objections I have to your God and his claim for omni- traits.

God has to be that entity that occupies the precursor to substance, making existence valid yet intangible. If God occupied existence as a tangible being, than He couldn't be eternal or omnipotent given that there would have to be a prior cause to supply the substance to make up his tangibility. We would be back to the absurdest example of "God" being subjugated over an endless loop of Gods. Being eternal also includes the preclusion of substance to avoid a causal substance creation - the crux of God's superiority thus firstly lies in his actuality as a non-physical entity. If we considered the alternative of no God at all, at this point we would have to reckon with the illogical notion of absolute nothingness propagating an actuality. Actuality itself can only exist if there is a contrast of something to make it so - that something is an intangible God.

No, no, no. You do not know that. No-one knows that. Firstly, you don't know that there even is such a thing as nothing, for what we consider the emptiest of spaces is abuzz with particles and anti-particles appearing and annihilating almost simultaneously. Secondly, you don't know that those events are not eternal, and are not the cause of the universe appearing in place of God. So he is NOT the only thing that could be a precursor to substance. Professor Lawrence Krauss puts forth a strong mathematical argument that the inevitable result of such a system will always result in matter from 'nothing'. Thirdly, eternal is another purely abstract concept, like infinity. We can conceptualise it, but it has never been observed and might never be. Think about eternal, it is a state of mind where there is no point in time you didn't exist. But if you appear alone in a void, what point of time do you have to compare to? From your viewpoint, you have always existed.

Even though Glob Glob and Smeelor created you.
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