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Isn't there something just so unappealingly lazy about so many religious claims?

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  3. Isn't there something just so unappealingly lazy about so many religious claims?

User Info: Magyar15

Magyar15
2 months ago#21
zipzo6 posted...
Actually I think the most egregious part is once you corner a religious person on these matters it just turns in to "I have faith", as if their faith is some kind of justification to have ever engaged in the debate in the first place.

The end all thing to learn here is debate over religion is pointless because it all inevitably ends up at faith. Religious people know their s*** can't be scientifically proven. That's not relevant to why they believe.

It's the ones who do argue from a scientific standpoint (creationists) that are the real weirdos.



Have you seen that here? Maybe you're not talking to the right people
A good man would prefer to be defeated than to defeat injustice by evil means - Sallust

User Info: Hexagon

Hexagon
2 months ago#22
Magyar15 posted...
zipzo6 posted...
Actually I think the most egregious part is once you corner a religious person on these matters it just turns in to "I have faith", as if their faith is some kind of justification to have ever engaged in the debate in the first place.

The end all thing to learn here is debate over religion is pointless because it all inevitably ends up at faith. Religious people know their s*** can't be scientifically proven. That's not relevant to why they believe.

It's the ones who do argue from a scientific standpoint (creationists) that are the real weirdos.



Have you seen that here? Maybe you're not talking to the right people


I have seen that here, but a long time ago I think and in some other forums. Its hard to find because it takes an earnest type of person to to admit there is no tangible evidence and no persuasive argument that can't be applied to any other faith, but they want to believe. I think its a perfectly valid explanation. The only thing that really makes me question how faith works (and admittedly I like looking for) is when people at this day use such simple and well known fallacies. I mean I can understand if you're little and learning about your faith, but how can people in their 20s, 30s, 40s spend their life reading a manual on their faith, attending a service lead by an expert in the faith and still argue fallacies that you wouldn't apply for anything else.

I can probably list an example of every common logical fallacy used for faith claims:
Ad populum There must be some validity to my faith if it has been documented for this long.
Appeal to probability Pascal's wager.
Appeal to emotion Wouldn't you rather there be a god and a heaven than die and cease to exist?
Circular reasoning God exists because this text is the word of the god.
Affirming the consequent How can you look at this beautiful world and say there is no god?
Burden of proof Prove that there is no god.
Gambler's fallacy The end times have never happened. The end times are coming so convert.
Special pleading Everything has a creator so there must be an ultimate creator.

There are some other ones I have on the top of my head, but I'm not sure what the fallacy is called if there is one, like the watchmaker argument that says watches have a creator, people have parent creators, buildings have creators, so everything must have a creator, yet "everything" is the vast vast majority of the universe which may or may not have a creator so the statistics are against the argument.

But my point is I don't understand why these exist. After thousands of years of religion how can there not be a refined answer to why people feel in practicing it? Like a simple I believe because X. And how have people within these faith groups have not dispelled these illogical fallacies. Its so intriguing.

Maybe I'll add to the list or if anyone wants to feel free.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
2 months ago#23
It's not like use of fallacies are exclusive to the religious.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevfumG9WSyr165n84HfwRQ

User Info: LinkFanatic

LinkFanatic
2 months ago#24
OrangeWizard posted...
It's not like use of fallacies are exclusive to the religious.


Yep. I invoke them sometimes, too, and I'm an atheist. The important thing is that when you do it, you recognize it, and then stop.
The first 2 forms of Cell flaunted his tail, like he's Ron Jeremy. But after he absorbed 18 his tail retracted and only seemed useful for reproducing. -Byron808

User Info: Hexagon

Hexagon
2 months ago#25
LinkFanatic posted...
OrangeWizard posted...
It's not like use of fallacies are exclusive to the religious.


Yep. I invoke them sometimes, too, and I'm an atheist. The important thing is that when you do it, you recognize it, and then stop.


Who doesn't. I thought I made it clear when I said fallacies they wouldn't apply to most things in their life. My point is how can any thousand year old organized religion exist and these fallacies still be popular? Its not like it's a fringe group of people I mean you see them everywhere on the internet and in real life too. I only find it interesting because I was raised in a family that never practices any faith so I don't have any experience. I feel like there should be a uniform answer to the question why.

User Info: LinkFanatic

LinkFanatic
2 months ago#26
Nah, I agree with you. I was just reaffirming a side point.
The first 2 forms of Cell flaunted his tail, like he's Ron Jeremy. But after he absorbed 18 his tail retracted and only seemed useful for reproducing. -Byron808

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
2 months ago#27
Hexagon posted...
My point is how can any thousand year old organized religion exist and these fallacies still be popular?


Probably because joining a religion does not guarantee enrollment in a curriculum designed to stamp out that sort of stuff.

Your average person who shows up on the occasional Sunday isn't going to be well-equipped for a debate.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevfumG9WSyr165n84HfwRQ

User Info: Hexagon

Hexagon
2 months ago#28
LinkFanatic posted...
Nah, I agree with you. I was just reaffirming a side point.


I know. Just two quotes one stone with some more information.

User Info: JosephSmith_JR

JosephSmith_JR
2 months ago#29
So much in life depends on our attitude. The way we choose to see things and respond to others makes all the difference. Without hard work, nothing gross but weeds. I am convinced that missionary work is not lazy, is not easy, because faith is not a cheap experience.

You may sometimes be tempted to say 'will my influence make any difference? I'm just one person. Will my service affect the work that dramatically?' I believe it will. However, you can never measure your influence for good. Work wins when wishy washy wishing won't.

Faith is all about hard work to some. The major work of the world is done by ordinary people.
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