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eternal hell makes no sense in Christianity

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  3. eternal hell makes no sense in Christianity

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#71
dhalsimrocks posted...
First of all, I appreciate your willingness to consider that I reached non-belief for non-selfish reasons. That makes a big difference.


When I look back at the entirety of my growth into this faith of Jesus, I find that I've learned more outside of the church than inside - oftentimes through non-religious conversation (simply living life) or even through dialogue/interaction with nonbelievers. This is why I always try to listen to what's being said, rather than for trigger words at which to throw my apologetic.

It sounds like you and I both have taken similar journeys... When I first started, I figured that one of the possible outcomes of my journey would be to discover some variation of Christianity that hardly anybody else believed in.


Knowing human tendency, I figured this would be the case. Even today, it is near impossible for me to have simple conversations with Christians because they're seemingly all operating from within some personal, deviant interpretation that is self-driven. I tend to look outside of the mainstream in all things, and though my journey started with faith/experience with God, I somehow knew that what I was seeing in the church wasn't going to cut it.

I'll give a quick example. For whatever reason, since my earliest memories of the church, I have had this psychological dissonance that occurs every time I hear the leaders [begging] for donations. I church hop alot, and it's gotten to the point where I can predict when the tithing drop is going to come in. And something inside has always just gone, "BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...can't pay attention....BZZZZ."

It wasn't until recently that I found there was a staunch resistance towards fundraising/money-grabbing in the church. The Didache outrightly calls those who use the ministry of God to ask for money, "false prophets."

This is a small - one of a bazillion - examples in which common intuition led me to the faith in spite of annoying traditions. I have a philosophy of study that's probably not fair nor consistently-adhered to: "Never trust a Christian who sells a book (for profit)."

In sum, I think the orthodox (for lack of a better word) faith is FAR more delicate and graceful than anything we see in the mainstream. It's a shame.

"Narrow and difficult is the road that leads to Life."

Where you and I diverge, however, is that I don't think any scripture is divine... I doubt Jesus existed at all....


I'm controversial like that, too. I don't believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God. I study each book individually within the context/genre that it is penned within, and the end result is this: the bible is exactly what I'd expect to find written by anyone who's had experience with God. It's confusing; it's wrought with human bias; it's sometimes contradictory - BUT it's cohesive because the thread of God's truth runs throughout.

For example, there ARE contradictions among the four Gospels. I can clearly see that Luke is compiling a narrative from fragmented stories picked up from interviews/witness/testimony/etc., and that inevitably this implies that some of the events/times/people are wrong. This, however, doesn't trouble me. Because though contradictory, the consistent witness is that God has been manifest to the world who has sought Him since time immemorial.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#72
Now, don't assume that I think someone made it all up as some con-job. I think the authors of the Bible had various motivations for writing what they did, very few if any of which were nefarious. But I don't think they were writing what they considered to be accurate history. I think some of the New Testament, for example, was written by authors who sincerely believed in Jesus, just not a historical one.


This might sound crazy, but to me, Jesus' existence is peripheral to my faith in God. I am convinced that the Spirit of God is contained in the character of Jesus, whether penned by men recording history, or created as poetry by the oppressed who were responding to the corruption of religion/state.

(I do believe in Jesus, though)

In any case, I don't think God is necessary to explain the tendency for humans to believe in gods and the supernatural, nor moral behavior, nor immoral actions. I think all if it is a product of the evolution of our species. We're social beings, which benefits greatly from what we call "moral" behavior...


I think we're smart enough as a people to either prove or disprove anything. Give a smart man enough time, and he'll figure a way to prove the innocence of an Osama Bin Laden, or a Richard Ramirez. There are convincing books written to this very end!

My point? The whole argument of man being endowed with the image of God is "open" enough to allow for evolutionary ethics, or social development of morality. But it's also obvious to me that man is not just a "next step in the evolutionary chain," but is wholly unique in countless facets of being.

Believe it or not, I actually read from the Bible quite often... I think the whole thing makes more sense under secular hypotheses. Despite that it's still incredibly fascinating.


Interesting. More on this later.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: dhalsimrocks

dhalsimrocks
1 month ago#73
YHWH_Saves posted...

I think we're smart enough as a people to either prove or disprove anything. Give a smart man enough time, and he'll figure a way to prove the innocence of an Osama Bin Laden, or a Richard Ramirez. There are convincing books written to this very end!


Rather than respond in any sort of itemized way, I think this statement reaches the core of the whole conversation.

How are you convinced that things are true? What does it mean for something to be proven or disproven and how does that relate to what you think is true?


My point? The whole argument of man being endowed with the image of God is "open" enough to allow for evolutionary ethics, or social development of morality. But it's also obvious to me that man is not just a "next step in the evolutionary chain," but is wholly unique in countless facets of being.


Evolution isn't a chain, nor are there steps. It is a process that results in genomes that can effectively make copies of themselves in specific environments. Are humans unique? Sure. But so are tardigrades, dolphins, octopus, bees and numerous other creatures and life.

The question is how do you know that we are so unique that we must be a creation of God? And how would you know if that wasn't true?
May all your disgraces be private

User Info: All4444Jesus

All4444Jesus
1 month ago#74
Zikten posted...
if the whole theme is redemption and forgiveness, than you can't have eternal punishment.


If you believe Jesus then you have to believe in a eternal hell. As here is what He said about eternal punishment in hell.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’- Mark 9:43-48
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.- Romans 10:9

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#75
dhalsimrocks posted...

Rather than respond in any sort of itemized way, I think this statement reaches the core of the whole conversation.

How are you convinced that things are true? What does it mean for something to be proven or disproven and how does that relate to what you think is true?


It depends. If we're talking about whether or not 2+2=4, we can agree upon an established criteria and then work from there.

If we're talking about whether OJ killed someone or not, it becomes a bit harder, because we have to inject ourselves into a time/place where we were originally not, and hope for the best, as we collect fragments of the story. It's still possible to achieve a high level of certainty, due to fingerprints, blood spurts, etc.

If we're talking about faith in God, then it becomes absolutely impossible to prove/disprove with empirical evidence, simply because the Spirit of God is experienced, not demonstrated (in a testable sort of way).

I could point out all the archaeological finds that lend credence to the biblical narrative (i.e, the Egyptian records of the Phoenicians/Phillistines, the David/Pilate inscriptions, the Gilboa mountains' curse [secular Jews pointed this out to me when I was there], etc.), but this is all explained away by (1) reinterpretation, or (2) doubting the authenticity.

The truth of God comes into the spotlight when one experiences God, and witnesses the overwhelming consistency of the individual experience with the human record of similar experiences.

SIDE NOTE (had already written, not necessarily the direction I intended to go):

I think it is very possible to become petrified into indecisiveness from absorbing terms and arguments without fully investing ourselves. For example, it is very easy to deny God because of evolution or quantum physics, without ever having taken the time to actually fully comprehend these things. Alternatively, it is very easy to convince oneself of God's existence due to miracle stories or misuses of apologetics/science. Somewhere in the middle, it is easy to believe wild theories about Jesus due to forged papyri or "hidden" books (that oftentimes date to centuries after the established canon).

The point is that in order to know truth, one has to invest oneself beyond superficial terms, or the opinions of others.

Not to keep puffing you up, but you are already leagues ahead of most I talk with simply because you take the time to study/read for yourself.


Evolution isn't a chain, nor are there steps. It is a process that results in genomes that can effectively make copies of themselves in specific environments. Are humans unique? Sure. But so are tardigrades, dolphins, octopus, bees and numerous other creatures and life.

The question is how do you know that we are so unique that we must be a creation of God? And how would you know if that wasn't true?

There are examples of sophisticated creatures or forces of nature that boggle my mind, I'll admit. And the truth is that we'll never know what (if anything) runs through these creatures' minds - if they contemplate the philosophical mysteries of consciousness or God. Or if they develop romantic relationships. Or if they create systems of welfare for lesser beings. Or if they perform in rock bands, self indulge or otherwise live the American dream. Or whether they elect leaders, develop advanced technology or send aid to impoverished nations. Or whether they are capable of genuine compassion or simply act in accordance with prescribed instinct.

I wonder these things, but after owning cats for years, I doubt it.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
1 month ago#76
All4444Jesus posted...
Mark 9:43-48


That's funny, in my bible verses 44 and 46 don't exist, and instead have a footnote that says that the reason for omitting them is that they aren't present in some earlier manuscripts, but only appear later, therefore it's likely that these verses were fabricated. Verse 48 is whole, though.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevfumG9WSyr165n84HfwRQ

User Info: omnichaos

omnichaos
1 month ago#77
Every single one of you is going to Islamic hell where your flesh will be burned away and constantly restored and burned away. The Sun itself will also be burning with you in Islamic hell for the infraction of daring to be worshiped by pagans.

User Info: jay2101

jay2101
1 month ago#78
Way I see it: if you spend you life walking, talking, and watching trash, you'll choose to go to hell.

If you spend your life praying, having faith, and staying away from trouble, you'll choose to go to heaven.

So it is ultimately your choice. It's not going to matter a lick about what you believe.

User Info: All4444Jesus

All4444Jesus
1 month ago#79
jay2101 posted...
Way I see it: if you spend you life walking, talking, and watching trash, you'll choose to go to hell.

If you spend your life praying, having faith, and staying away from trouble, you'll choose to go to heaven.

So it is ultimately your choice. It's not going to matter a lick about what you believe.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”- John 3:36
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.- Romans 10:9

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
1 month ago#80
All those poor people who lived and died without ever hearing about Christianity...
No, they must have deserved it by not being born as Americans!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevfumG9WSyr165n84HfwRQ
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