Your thoughts on Competitive TF2

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User Info: Krudmuffins

Krudmuffins
4 years ago#51
BakedStuffEtc posted...
- By restrictive rules I assume you mean weapon bans? Because the leagues that don't ban all unlocks are actually rather reasonable, and just remove weapons that would centralize the metagames and strategies
- Lack of strategy? I take it you've never actually played/watched 6s. It's not just 6man MGE or whatever you think


Restrictive, as in how set in stone everything ends up being. If a new weapon comes out, and its better than what's considered the norm (or it prolongs the game etc etc..) it's typically axed until leagues can properly assess it. I'm a variety-monger though, the more options and freedom the player has, the nicer. Freedom allows for innovation which helps team-based experience evolve.

I'll be honest, I've played very little 6s (what I did play was years ago), and watched even less. I have a bunch of friends that used to screw around in the big leagues, but I personally always found it boring. My understanding is that there is very little cleverness in 'playing the other team,' and a lot more of 'being technically skilled at TF2...' Which I was arguing was pretty pointless considering the quality of other games out there that (I believe) allow for tighter and more interesting 'technical' gameplay. I'll spare examples, because once favouritism comes into a debate things get messy.

But think of the best YouTube videos that highlight competitive TF2. They're mostly videos of scouts making clutch take-downs on medics, soldiers airshotting, medics popping an uber to save three teammates as the other team kritz' a soldier.

HyperDragon posted...
The funny thing is is that not only have the developers come out and said TF2 was designed to appeal to casual and competitive players and play, but they've directly come out and said the classes were not designed to be used equally, but rather switched out as Generalist and Specialist classes, so in a way 6v6 is more honest to the original design of the game than Highlander is.


I didn't actually know the devs have said this. I -do- know that after 6v6 started getting popular they made changes to the game to standardize it and cater to the competitive players (no damage-spread [come to think of it, I can't remember a specific update that added this option], grid pellets on shotguns, and so forth).

As for the classes falling into distinct groups, I would say that if Valve did intentionally design a few classes to simply be 'usually more usefull,' that could be called poor game design... which may be true (and to be fair calling a single pyro a more usefull class on a team than a single medic is a downright lie 4/5 times). But the addition of certain class changes, and more weapons or tools to choose from has done wonders to even out the 'usefulness' of each class on a team of any size. At the very least, regardless of Valve's original intentions for the class roles, they've changed and broadened a ton over the past 5 years implying that Valve wants a greater degree of 'balance' between the classes.

I totally understand the appeal behind a small, fast-moving, standardized, class-based competitive team game. TF2 just doesn't strike me as one of those games, and if it were to be played competitively, why not use everything it offers to make unique gameplay.

Of course, the 6s leagues -are- (and have been) pretty big, so maybe I just don't get it.
I dislike my username.

User Info: HyperDragon

HyperDragon
4 years ago#52
Krudmuffins posted...


I didn't actually know the devs have said this. I -do- know that after 6v6 started getting popular they made changes to the game to standardize it and cater to the competitive players (no damage-spread [come to think of it, I can't remember a specific update that added this option], grid pellets on shotguns, and so forth).


a) http://news.esea.net/tf2/index.php?s=news&d=comments&id=8937

It is true that TF2 did not launch with much competitive feature support, that would be poor logic to argue the developers never intended it be competitive. The guy who made Team Fortress (and lead the TF2 Cabal) is Robin Walker, a competitive Quake player who made QWTF and later TFC to be competitive Team oriented games. I find it impossible to believe that the guy who played a game competitively, made 2 competitives, took part in competitive-esque events, and led the private competitive only original TF2 beta never intended TF2 to be played competitively.

b) www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_ItF1wOT0&t=13m

It is neigh impossible to have a variety of classes that are all "equally useful" without homogenization (see: WoW). The classes are designed as Generalists that are generally applicable, and Specialists that are awful most of the time but come out on top over the Generalists in specific situations.

User Info: Some_Hoar

Some_Hoar
4 years ago#53
I really don't understand why some players (like in this thread) say comp players don't play to have fun for whatever reason, because the reason that almost every 6v6 player plays in that format is due to them finding 6v6 more enjoyable then public servers. Just because competitive rulesets standardize the game doesn't mean people won't like it.

Also the only reason I can find for the stigma of 'all comp players are total twerps' is a few low-mid level players that can't help but shove themselves in people's faces while having an ego the size of the moon. They inevitably stop playing when they realise that nobody actually likes them though. Also a few trolls that act like these people to deliberately stir up ****. The fact that a decent amount of the league admins (at least in etf2l) are useless, corrupt, and generally obnoxious doesn't help either but I'll leave that one alone.

A tip for anyone who thinks comp tf2 players play for prizes: The prizes for winning etf2l's premier division (the highest one out of 7 divisions and hundreds of teams) is a few mid tier computer peripherals. Meanwhile winning a LAN event barely covers the cost of actually getting everyone to the LAN in the first place.
Bald_Money posted...
How many alternate accounts does Some_Hoar have? From the look of things, it's something like 6.

User Info: BakedStuffEtc

BakedStuffEtc
4 years ago#54
Krudmuffins posted...
Restrictive, as in how set in stone everything ends up being. If a new weapon comes out, and its better than what's considered the norm (or it prolongs the game etc etc..) it's typically axed until leagues can properly assess it. I'm a variety-monger though, the more options and freedom the player has, the nicer. Freedom allows for innovation which helps team-based experience evolve.


Though in most cases allowing SOME weapons would just centralize everything around dumb strategies that would slow everything down or make it just... not fun. There is generally a good range of unlocks allowed in most leagues, it's not like it's just stock+Kritz+Ubersaw or something

Krudmuffins posted...
My understanding is that there is very little cleverness in 'playing the other team,' and a lot more of 'being technically skilled at TF2...'


Both really do come into play. Sometimes there's just not a lot of strategy involved because one team's getting rolled or something

Krudmuffins posted...
But think of the best YouTube videos that highlight competitive TF2. They're mostly videos of scouts making clutch take-downs on medics, soldiers airshotting, medics popping an uber to save three teammates as the other team kritz' a soldier.


Fragvids are just for the people who want to watch impressive kills, that's it. RARELY ever do they showcase entire plays and even rarer are actual comms, because most of the time it doesn't mesh well with editing the kills in

Which is why you start watching casted games of good teams
My opinion is objective fact. If you disagree, well, you're wrong.

User Info: CrayolaNinja

CrayolaNinja
4 years ago#55
Krudmuffins posted...
But think of the best YouTube videos that highlight competitive TF2. They're mostly videos of scouts making clutch take-downs on medics, soldiers airshotting, medics popping an uber to save three teammates as the other team kritz' a soldier.



A strategy in TF2 can take 3-4 minutes to show the whole thing. It's not like counterstrike where it can be done in 30-60 seconds.

also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbFA2LH5OIM

that and the one where Checksix Gaming did their famous backcap strat are two of the greatest things I've ever seen in this game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-6MktcmaGY&feature=channel_video_title
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