Definitely worthwhile ... (Spoliers)

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User Info: Idaeus_004

Idaeus_004
4 years ago#61
Darkling183 posted...
I find myself wondering how much of that (on my part) is due to his character design. In Kana Okaeri he doesn't have those sharp cat-like eyes and looks like just your average decent guy. I found him a bit more sympathetic in Okaeri due to the difference in his appearance and the voice actor they chose for him.

Hmmm, it's definitely possible that Yutas appearance works against him in KLS; but I'd say that's appropriate though. You're supposed to see him & be suspicious, maybe even see him as a danger. If you didn't, & he just seemed like a decent guy, you wouldn't mind him seeing your sister after all... Even if it works against him, I'd say the 'cat-eyed' KLS Yuta is more appropriate in the 'grand scheme of things' as far as the story goes...

Also; it's true that incest, even among non-blood relatives, is a very murky issue. Despite cases where people haven't even been blood relatives, yet have been brought up together; there does seem to be a heavily negative edge to relationship (My opinion was, I'd say, more 'common sense' based. The idea that there's no genetic 'clash', & you know that the person your child is dating (That ofc ISN'T your other child) is a good person, &; speaking from an evolutionary point, a 'good mate' or whatever :/

The whole incest-taboo does seem to stem primarily from a throwback to the idea of genetic cross-contamination. With that old fear giving influence to a case where said contamination isn't even a risk.

I concur that I don't agree with any views that incest is a form of abuse; although it could be in some cases, I don't think incest EQUALS abuse. But the whole issue's become so murky & conflicted that no-one hardly ever has the desire to bring it up & make sense of it for fear of judgment.

I know that Japanese culture only tends to concern itself with incest as far as direct siblings, & I've heard of lots of cases concerning cousins (which genetically speaking, I don't believe has anywhere near the same problems as far as inbreeding is concerned); & have even heard of a few arranged partnerships in that regard.

You do make a good point that since the whole incest taboo is basically to do with breeding then, if they use protection & don't have children, is it a crime? But I think that would just come back to the same problem Taka & Kana would have. People who don't think things through would see the relationship as wrong even though there was no incest at all as far as genetics is concerned... Man for a bishoujo game KLS sure brings up some complex social, moral & ethical issues doesn't it? I've seen philosophical books & films that have delved less! Haha

User Info: Darkling183

Darkling183
4 years ago#62
Idaeus_004 posted...
Hmmm, it's definitely possible that Yutas appearance works against him in KLS; but I'd say that's appropriate though. You're supposed to see him & be suspicious, maybe even see him as a danger.
I think that comes down to the differences in direction and 'casting' in Okaeri. KLS's director may have wanted Yuta to look somewhat shifty, whereas Okaeri's director either missed that or wanted to go in a different direction with him.


Despite cases where people haven't even been blood relatives, yet have been brought up together; there does seem to be a heavily negative edge to relationship
I think it's also partly to do with the phenomenon known as Westermarck effect. Two people who spend a great deal of time together when one or both of them are in their early formative years develop a case of 'reverse sexual imprinting' on each other; later in life, they're simply incapable of finding each other sexually attractive.

That means that most people can't even imagine being attracted to their sibling or one of their parents. It's still taboo to them, even if it's an adoptive or step-sibling, because they don't see it as natural.

Taka and Kana didn't see each other all that much as children, though; Kana was usually at the hospital. So it's possible that Westermarck effect didn't take hold in their case, allowing them to develop romantic and sexual feelings for each other as teenagers. (Yeah, I've done a lot of reading up about incest.)


I concur that I don't agree with any views that incest is a form of abuse; although it could be in some cases, I don't think incest EQUALS abuse. But the whole issue's become so murky & conflicted that no-one hardly ever has the desire to bring it up & make sense of it for fear of judgment.
Yeah, I've often thought the same thing. The laws forbidding 'incest, full stop' are archaic and outdated, but nobody's going to make a fuss about them. No-one's going to stand up for the minority of incestuous couples out there. It will always be viewed as wrong. It just frustrates me that a loving relationship between two consenting adults could be considered a criminal act just because 'eww, it's icky'. The law should keep its nose out of things like that.


Man for a bishoujo game KLS sure brings up some complex social, moral & ethical issues doesn't it?
It certainly does. It leaves you thinking "if I'd been Taka in that situation, what would I have done?". It has a lot to say and (for the most part) it sticks the landing. Later efforts from Romeo Tanaka have been a little top-heavy in terms of the number of issues he tries to address, and sort of collapse under their own weight. KLS gets the balance between thought-provoking content and compelling character development just right, if you ask me.

User Info: Idaeus_004

Idaeus_004
4 years ago#63
Darkling183 posted...
That means that most people can't even imagine being attracted to their sibling or one of their parents. It's still taboo to them, even if it's an adoptive or step-sibling, because they don't see it as natural.

Taka and Kana didn't see each other all that much as children, though; Kana was usually at the hospital. So it's possible that Westermarck effect didn't take hold in their case, allowing them to develop romantic and sexual feelings for each other as teenagers. (Yeah, I've done a lot of reading up about incest.)

Wow, must admit I'm impressed that you've studied up on it to that extent :) I've looked up some stuff on it sicne finishing KLS, but nothing to that degree. Kudos to you sir.

You have a point that because Taka & Kana weren't close to begin with, & since Kana was in hospital so much they didn't spend as much time together in the same home as ordinary siblings would. But another point I realised is that since Kana spent more time in hospital than out; it was probably more like visiting a girl (or for Kana being visited by a boy) who WASN'T family; as it would have possibly been closer to the relationship of good friends rather than siblings with how they saw each other & spent their time. If anything their relationship would probably have been likened to romance between childhood friends rather than siblings what with how they interacted, as they both effectively lived in different places. Kanas times when she was at home were probably more like having a friend stay over in that regard, as opposed to having your sister at home.

Simply put, since they would have had more of a childhood friendship relationship rather than a brother-sister relationship, the romance would have come about very awkwardly, but have been much more likely to occur. Which is of course, what happens.

It certainly does. It leaves you thinking "if I'd been Taka in that situation, what would I have done?". It has a lot to say and (for the most part) it sticks the landing. Later efforts from Romeo Tanaka have been a little top-heavy in terms of the number of issues he tries to address, and sort of collapse under their own weight. KLS gets the balance between thought-provoking content and compelling character development just right, if you ask me.

I just can't get over how impressive it was to tell the truth. I keep thinking, whatever I was expecting when I ordered this, it sure as hell wasn't THAT! I was thinking I'd get it play through, (hopefully) go "Hmmm, that was pretty good, glad I got it."; & move one. Instead It's grabbed me more than any book, game, series, film, etc, has in my entire memory; & I haven't gone more than a few hours at most without it popping up in my head. Honestly, I sometimes have to work hard NOT to think about certain things from it, in case I end up crying about something sad, & have to deal with people asking what's the matter. Doubt they'd get it if I told them, haha.

It's a very sad affair that Tanakas work afterwards didn't measure up to KLS, as there could have been some real works of art out there had he kept it up, instead of the market being swamped with mediocre titles as it is currently ... 'sigh' :/

User Info: Darkling183

Darkling183
4 years ago#64
Idaeus_004 posted...
Wow, must admit I'm impressed that you've studied up on it to that extent :) I've looked up some stuff on it since finishing KLS, but nothing to that degree. Kudos to you sir.
LOL, thanks. It's not something I can exactly brag about in my day-to-day life, but at least I can bask in the compliments here. =)


Simply put, since they would have had more of a childhood friendship relationship rather than a brother-sister relationship, the romance would have come about very awkwardly, but have been much more likely to occur. Which is of course, what happens.
Hmm, that's very true. If Kana's health had been more robust, she would have spent more time at home and probably gone back to being perceived as Taka's annoying little sister, and Taka would have found other girls to develop a childhood friendship relationship with (after recovering from his embarrassment over Yumi).

As it was, though, Kana remained at enough of a distance from him that 'familiarity breeds contempt' never came into play. He cared about her and worried about her and carefully considered what books to bring that would entertain her. In essence, she became his girlfriend from the moment he sought refuge with her after the love letter incident.

Of course, initially 'Mom' was there to watch over them, but gradually it stopped being a family thing and became more exclusively a Taka-Kana thing.

Now that I think about it, the Yosuga no Sora anime had a similar justification for the romantic attraction between the protagonist and his twin sister. She spent a lot of time at hospital as a child, and he never went to visit her, so when she was finally well enough to come home, he didn't see her as his sister - he just saw her as a cute girl who had come to live with them. No Westermarck effect in their case.


I just can't get over how impressive it was to tell the truth. I keep thinking, whatever I was expecting when I ordered this, it sure as hell wasn't THAT!
KLS is one of the very few cases where I've heard nothing but unilateral praise for something before experiencing it myself and then, afterwards, it not only lived up to the hype for me - it exceeded it.

Sure, there have been 'sleeper hits' that crept up and took me by surprise (The Walking Dead game being one example) because of my low expectations or general ignorance, but I went into KLS fully expecting to love it, and I absolutely did.


It's a very sad affair that Tanakas work afterwards didn't measure up to KLS, as there could have been some real works of art out there had he kept it up, instead of the market being swamped with mediocre titles as it is currently ... 'sigh' :/
Yeah, you're telling me. I was so hyped for Family Project after reading so many positive reviews of the original Japanese release. I wasn't expecting KLS-level emotional involvement - that would have been way too much to expect - but the game itself was just tedious and unfunny and filled with characters I couldn't like or even sympathise with. I don't know what went wrong with Romeo Tanaka's head between KLS and Family Project, but I wouldn't have believed they were by the same writer if that fact hadn't been so heavily publicised by JAST. Maybe he just had too much creative control over his later projects. I don't know.

Still, KLS will always be there as a good example of what a bishoujo game can be.

User Info: NeutralDrow

NeutralDrow
4 years ago#65
Idaeus_004 posted...
It's a very sad affair that Tanakas work afterwards didn't measure up to KLS, as there could have been some real works of art out there had he kept it up, instead of the market being swamped with mediocre titles as it is currently ... 'sigh' :/


Speak for yourself. I actually like Family Project so far (it's a riot, especially with Norio Wakamoto's character, and has one of my favorite protagonists ever), I've heard good things about Cross+Channel and Rewrite, and A Drug That Makes You Dream is probably my favorite game ever (or at least tied with Tsukihime and Kanon).

Granted, I know I'm in the minority as far as Family Project goes here. Actually, hearing it bashed so often on this board is what drove me to play it early. Still 1.5 routes in, and would have finished it by now if I hadn't gotten depressed over other things in life and sought out something more lighthearted, finally settling on Symphonic Rain.


...yeah, that kinda backfired.
"Oh man, we're in trouble!"
"Come now. The worst that can happen is we all die."

User Info: virumor

virumor
4 years ago#66
Aoba + Matsuri route are good in Family Project, the other routes are mediocre at best. I really hated the Chinese girl.

User Info: Idaeus_004

Idaeus_004
4 years ago#67
Darkling183 posted...
She spent a lot of time at hospital as a child, and he never went to visit her, so when she was finally well enough to come home, he didn't see her as his sister - he just saw her as a cute girl who had come to live with them. No Westermarck effect in their case.

Bingo. The lack of any 'real' family interaction & lifestyle resulted (in both cases) in them forming a realtionship more akin to very close friends rather than siblings. Besides the 'known' facts (like knowing, or at least believing , that they were related; or called each other brother & sister); they didn't have what most people would consider a brother & sister relationship at all. No Westermarck effect would take place at all, as the important details & interactions in their lives that would lead to it's development weren't actually present.

KLS is one of the very few cases where I've heard nothing but unilateral praise for something before experiencing it myself and then, afterwards, it not only lived up to the hype for me - it exceeded it.

Yeah, that's actually pretty insane & amazing when you actually think about it. Considering the issues with stuff like terminal disease, incest & so on; I'm actually surprised more people didn't have complaints really. Yet everyone that plays it manages to get past any 'dark points' & see how incredible it actually is & ultimately ends up loving it. I struggle to think of many other things that I've never heard any negative comments for (y'know, from people that've actually TRIED it anyway, lol).

Still, KLS will always be there as a good example of what a bishoujo game can be.

Amen brother :)

I really will be overjoyed & amazed if anything else even comes close to giving me the same feeling that KLS did (though perhaps not the sadness & emotional depression). Currently downloading 'If My Heart' though; & will hopefully be starting that later once I grab the patch... Fingers crossed ...

NeutralDrow posted...
would have finished it by now if I hadn't gotten depressed over other things in life and sought out something more lighthearted, finally settling on Symphonic Rain.

Ouch. That's not what you need when you're after something nice & lighthearted at all >_<

I wouldn't mind TRYING Family Project; as I do like to decide what I think of things for myself rather than forming my ultimate opinions from other peoples views; but I've heard a lot more bad than good, which puts in pretty far down the priority list in terms to titles to play.

User Info: Darkling183

Darkling183
4 years ago#68
Idaeus_004 posted...
Yeah, that's actually pretty insane & amazing when you actually think about it. Considering the issues with stuff like terminal disease, incest & so on; I'm actually surprised more people didn't have complaints really.
I guess it's all right there in the title. There's a girl called Kana. She's your little sister. You bang her. A lot of people would draw the line right there, and that's perfectly fine. The subject matter just isn't for them. There's lots of games I haven't played, despite people's recommendations, purely because I'm not interested in the premise.

But it does seem like those who do play KLS are almost universally blown away by it, because it paints Taka and Kana so vividly that they feel almost real, then puts them through the wringer and kills Kana repeatedly. Manipulative, yes, but also masterfully done.


Currently downloading 'If My Heart' though; & will hopefully be starting that later once I grab the patch... Fingers crossed ...
Well, let me know your first impressions. Right now it's mostly the issues with the translation that are holding me back. If it's a good story, then I feel it deserves a translation that does it justice.


I wouldn't mind TRYING Family Project; as I do like to decide what I think of things for myself rather than forming my ultimate opinions from other peoples views; but I've heard a lot more bad than good, which puts in pretty far down the priority list in terms to titles to play.
I'm open-minded and willing to accept that people like different things. The 'wacky' character I found so grating in FP may be absolutely hilarious to someone more in tune with whichever Japanese comedy nerve he's intended to touch.

I just found that the story dragged on interminably before anything actually started to happen, and that I wasn't emotionally drawn in by any of the five love interests. I actively disliked two of them, and I found the other three to be absolute ditzes. None of them had much depth to their backstory other than 'oh, my life has been affected by an ISSUE; this ISSUE is a big problem in our society, but if you make the right choices in this game, I can deal with this ISSUE and then we can participate in a not-particularly-erotic-or-lengthy sex scene'.

In my opinion, KLS dealt with a couple of issues (incest, mortality) really well, while FP tried to deal with about seven or eight of them, making me sit through a jaw-droppingly long common path that cycled through all of the girls' ISSUES repeatedly, again and again, whether I gave a damn about that girl or not. Then, about two-thirds of the way into the game, it finally started branching into comparatively short, perfunctory resolutions to each girl's situation.

At least with your other, typical sex-fest games, they have a relatively shorter common path, and the bulk of each girl's story is told once you're set on her path and have indicated that you have an interest in her. But not FP. No, in FP, each girl's ISSUES get forced down your throat.

Wow, I think I'm still bitter about Family Project, and that was like four years ago now. =)

User Info: Idaeus_004

Idaeus_004
4 years ago#69
Darkling183 posted...
I guess it's all right there in the title. There's a girl called Kana. She's your little sister. You bang her. A lot of people would draw the line right there, and that's perfectly fine. The subject matter just isn't for them. There's lots of games I haven't played, despite people's recommendations, purely because I'm not interested in the premise.

But it does seem like those who do play KLS are almost universally blown away by it, because it paints Taka and Kana so vividly that they feel almost real, then puts them through the wringer and kills Kana repeatedly. Manipulative, yes, but also masterfully done.

Yeah, I can forgive people for not wanting to play through it under the impression that it's just about sleeping with a girl who's your sister. But I'd be amazed to find anyone who put in the effort to complete it & still doesn't approve of it once they've done it all.

Well, let me know your first impressions. Right now it's mostly the issues with the translation that are holding me back. If it's a good story, then I feel it deserves a translation that does it justice.

Haha, will do. Unfortunately not had time today, but HOPING to get a chance by the end of the weekend (lot going on lately -_- ); but hopefully by tomorrow evening if I can. Definitely itching to have a go... Just making sure the patch is working properly first :)

In my opinion, KLS dealt with a couple of issues (incest, mortality) really well, while FP tried to deal with about seven or eight of them, making me sit through a jaw-droppingly long common path that cycled through all of the girls' ISSUES repeatedly, again and again, whether I gave a damn about that girl or not. Then, about two-thirds of the way into the game, it finally started branching into comparatively short, perfunctory resolutions to each girl's situation.

At least with your other, typical sex-fest games, they have a relatively shorter common path, and the bulk of each girl's story is told once you're set on her path and have indicated that you have an interest in her. But not FP. No, in FP, each girl's ISSUES get forced down your throat.

Wow, I think I'm still bitter about Family Project, and that was like four years ago now. =)

... Hmmm, yeah... I'm definitely getting a vague impression that you didn't like it? Lol. I'll probably try it eventually as I've said, just so I can say 'done it', then feel free to make & back up my own opinion. Have to admit though, I'm not going in hopefully ...

One of the main appeals for KLS was probably that it wasn't really that focused on sex at all. The sex scenes were mainly there purely to back up & add substance to the main story (As is evidenced by the fact that the game was adaptable to a PG. Something you couldn't do in a sex-driven storyline). It seems like a silly thing; but when you consider that the main point of 99.99% of bishoujo games IS sex, it becomes incredible to realise that here's a game that's pretty much a masterpiece; yet the sex scenes aren't actually the scenes that stick in your head & you think of for years after.

User Info: Darkling183

Darkling183
4 years ago#70
Idaeus_004 posted...
Yeah, I can forgive people for not wanting to play through it under the impression that it's just about sleeping with a girl who's your sister. But I'd be amazed to find anyone who put in the effort to complete it & still doesn't approve of it once they've done it all.
It's just getting over that initial prejudice that's the problem, as we've mentioned before. I have two friends who I think would really enjoy the story and the emotions that drive it, but I don't know if they'd be squicked out by the incest element.


... Hmmm, yeah... I'm definitely getting a vague impression that you didn't like it?
To put it mildly, yeah. =)

First, let me say that this is all IMHO, YMMV, etc, but for me, not only did it not live up to the reputation it had online, I just didn't think it was a good bishoujo game, full stop. It's right down there with Hitomi My Stepsister on my list of 'games I never need or want to play again' (though for different reasons, of course).

When you play it, I'd advise following the walkthrough I posted here on GameFAQs (not my work - just a walkthrough I found on a Japanese website and figured out using Google Translate). It details the choices you need to make throughout the first two-thirds of the game so that you don't accidentally ruin your chances with any of the girls. Then you can save at the first branching point and go from there. It'll save you hours of repetition.


One of the main appeals for KLS was probably that it wasn't really that focused on sex at all. The sex scenes were mainly there purely to back up & add substance to the main story (As is evidenced by the fact that the game was adaptable to a PG. Something you couldn't do in a sex-driven storyline).
True. The first sex scene with Yumi is crucial to the plot, but it could be glossed over. Likewise, I think Taka and Kana making love after visiting the ocean or in Ending 1 are powerful emotional scenes that need to be there, but they don't need to be explicit.

Now that I think about it, Crescendo also integrates the sex scenes into the plot very strongly. There are at least three sexual encounters in the game that drive the plot forward, rather than just being the reward for winning the girl of your choice (though there's that variety as well, of course).
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