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User Info: sly_1

sly_1
6 years ago#31
Errors in the logic of mankind don't hold any bearing over whether or not God exists. That is to say just because a religious person you've talked to contradicts themselves at some point doesn't mean everything they say is inherently wrong.

I have not had a single person explain things to me without eventually contradicting or coming a silent stop.

I still wait for someone who doesn't, really I do.

You say "by our knowledge", therefore you must be open to the suggestion that perhaps life exists elsewhere. Just because we don't know what a supposed God has/has not done doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Obviously I am open to the suggestion that life exists somewhere else.
Why wouldn't I be? I hope there is life elsewhere. We just don't know where it is.
Still, this I thought I was clear by saying how nature did all this on its own, that the life on this planet would also simply be the course of nature. Not some god.

I just said by our knowledge because we obviously don't know if there is any life out there. And if there is, we don't know where.

I'm not sure you fully understand the concept of a God or 'ultimate power' if you will.
God does not have to be a being, nor any tangible object. God does not need to make sense to you or anyone else and above all else God does not need to be explained.
The whole idea is that God 'just is'.


Which is why there isn't one. "Just is" is not a valid point.
And exactly, as you say: "The whole idea".
People need to get the idea and believe. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any chatolisism or any other religion.

In the rest of your post you basically talked a lot about how humanity has interpreted the world around them, what you're forgetting is that even if one or any of the various so called 'holy books' that exist aren't 100% factual it doesn't disprove the existence of a higher power or entity.

No but a simple book does not convince me, or means it is wrong. The book was made by man. Be the book true or not, I care not. It is out of experience and simple facts from nature that I know there is no "higher being".

Because no matter how funny the trolling god images are, they are right!
"God kills thousands in a disaster, survivors pray and thank him for saving them."

See anything wrong with that?
God doesn't make disasters, nature does. God didn't save you, you got lucky or you saved yourself thinking you got help when in fact it is the mere illusion that drove you forward.
Disasters are the course of nature. Earthquakes are made by shifting of the tectonic plates on Earth. Tsunamis are caused by an underwater earthquake. A mix of factors makes a disaster. Not "god".

Like I said, I do UNDERSTAND why people believe and I will never say they're stupid for doing so. Never. I don't mean to disrespect or insult anyone as I've said before.
I'm just saying things how I see them, be it out of experience or not.

The real truth of the matter is that mankind as a whole doesn't know s*** about anything significant and presuming to know the truth when it comes to these matters is silly..

True, but how do you know they're wrong?
Why wouldn't they be true if several facts back it up.
Resistance 2 [WTF] Clan Comic: http://tinyurl.com/6b3f939
PSN: Sly_08 [WTF] (leader); Happily Disturbed; King of all Trades.

User Info: sly_1

sly_1
6 years ago#32
If someone chooses to believe something it's their prerogative and they're welcome to it, an issue only arises when they begin to judge others who believe differently.

Edit: You seem to be misreading this because I am not judging anyone.
If you want to believe, sure, I won't stop you, it's your choice. I may have a conversation with you about how I see things and perhaps you might "open your eyes" or just see things differently after. If not, well, that's also good because if he wants to believe, who am I to say he can't? Exactly.

It's not so much that I'll try to convince them to not believe, it's more like I'll try to just understand why he believes or needs to believe.

For all their 'logic', atheists are just as blind as the people who claim their religious beliefs are 100% true.

Possibly. But why would they be so blind when there are facts?
Face it, in religion, some guy with no factual back up said some things and people believed him.

Now the following are, as you say, human mistakes and not "god's" doing, BUT, to get back on the earlier point as where religion is used to justify a means or turn facts around, I have started developing a...not hatred but more of a disgust towards religious people. The prime example being Catholisism (and yes, I am catholic.):

The earth was supposedly flat. No it wasn't. Ignorance of men.

The Earth was supposedly the center of the universe and the moon and sun rotated around it. Also bull to any educated person today, but back then, if you said otherwise, you were a heretic for the cloth and you were to be executed. Severe power abuse. Men using religion to have power. "god has chosen you". *spits* pathooi!

Now let's take the above example. Say, today, the church still had as much power as it did back then. People were fed with lies. Lies that the earth was the centre. Lies that god has made the earth in seven days. And I can keep going like this, I'm sure you know that, but if you look at the Church now, and how much power it has lost, why wouldn't the source of this religion be a lie either?
What story to the creation of Earth was there B.C.?

And let's finally not forget: the child abuse within the church. "god will forgive you from your sins." **** you!! Put the ****er in jail where he belongs!

THAT my friend is what bothers me thé most about religion. Religion, not the whole "god exists, god doesn't exist". That stands relatively loose from this point.
Religion being used to hide behind, to abuse people, to kill others. Others, your own species!

I just don't believe in god out of experience and because there are too many scientific facts.
Resistance 2 [WTF] Clan Comic: http://tinyurl.com/6b3f939
PSN: Sly_08 [WTF] (leader); Happily Disturbed; King of all Trades.

User Info: SirDan88

SirDan88
6 years ago#33
That was a lot of reading so I didn't do most of it. But I just wanted to add my two cents. Aren't religious debates so fun?

-Jesus didn't create Christianity. He was Jewish. Christianity that anyway resembles what it is today came hundreds of years after he died. Islam came a couple Hundred years after that. Judaism preceded both of them by a LONG time.

-All three of those religions worship the EXACT same god. Different denominations (Catholic, Orthodox, Sunni, what have you) are just different interpretations of the same thing. For example, Jesus is one of the five major prophets in Islam.


And this is something I ask all atheists, Do you believe in ghosts? Or anything supernatural?
PSN: Ellis4Life

User Info: sly_1

sly_1
6 years ago#34
^Thanks for the clarification and yeah, knew the second one. Mentioned that somewhere. Just not...so detailed as my knowledge on the matter is not so great lol.

Do you believe in ghosts? Or anything supernatural?

I do not believe in ghosts.
Supernatural....that depends.
Supernatural can contain so much and there are things I probably partially believe in, or there are things I want to believe in, but have no reason to.
Resistance 2 [WTF] Clan Comic: http://tinyurl.com/6b3f939
PSN: Sly_08 [WTF] (leader); Happily Disturbed; King of all Trades.

User Info: PadreV

PadreV
6 years ago#35
I still don't have time for a lengthy reply to anything at the moment, but I will make a point or two...


@Neo - you said so much I wanted to say, but you said it better than I could have


@Sly - You still don't offend me. I still want to have a long convo over a pub table, with you.


And just to make it clear of my standpoint - I am NOT a fan of organized religion. As I've stated previously in this topic: "Also, over the centuries, ridiculously horrendous slaughters have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity and Islam... among others. There have been bloody disagreements between different factions of Christianity. There is still constant conflict between different factions of Islam going on right now."

This is why I have nothing for organized religion. It ends up nothing more than a power struggle which is totally against the basis the 'religion' was founded on to begin with.

It's not the religion itself that is the problem, most of the time, it's still the human capacity for greed and cruelty. It's not "Gods" fault. Never has been. Humans do this to themselves and try to blame it on anything else... just simply refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one, and I mean NO ONE, has ever proved ANYTHING as to whether or not there is, or isn't, a God, gods, higher power, etc... You have zero definitive proof of evolution or creation. It is ALL still THEORY. Any attempts to lable it anything else are no different than religious nuts claiming their way is absolute truth.

Over the years my eyes have been opened to quite a bit. I now question damn near everything I hear, and about half of what I see. Rarely, if ever, do I just accept things at face value anymore. There are people I've met who would call that "heresey!" for not just blindly accepting what I'm taught through the church. I no longer care about their opinions. The "God" I know does not wish for us to be simple blind followers... I believe he would prefer that we study and seek knowledge, learn and progress. Whether or not I am right or wrong is of no matter to anyone but me. I still can't prove a damn thing. Neither can anyone else.
Educato est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis. Si vis pacem, para bellum.

User Info: sly_1

sly_1
6 years ago#36
There are people I've met who would call that "heresey!" for not just blindly accepting what I'm taught through the church.

I call that using your brains...

No one, and I mean NO ONE, has ever proved ANYTHING as to whether or not there is, or isn't, a God, gods, higher power, etc... You have zero definitive proof of evolution or creation

True. But, my obvious response would be in this case, you can't provide proof for what isn't there. That's how I see it...

And Padre, my friend, evolution is all around us.
Certainly, things CAN be proven. I don't know why you say they can't when you will agree with me they can :s.
Dinosaurs. The continental shift. The creation of Earth. The creation and death of a star. Animals and their adaption to the local wildlife. And so forth.

All things, that happened, can be proved and are because of Evolution.

Unless, of course, you have a different definition of Evolution.
Gladly tell me then beforehand, otherwise I feel we might be having a baseless conversation here.
Resistance 2 [WTF] Clan Comic: http://tinyurl.com/6b3f939
PSN: Sly_08 [WTF] (leader); Happily Disturbed; King of all Trades.

User Info: SirDan88

SirDan88
6 years ago#37
That's actually a great point Padre. Evolution is still a theory, just like Einstein's theory of relativity (look all this up if you doubt me).

A theory only becomes a law (like the law of gravity) after it can be proven to an exact point (not a gauge or range of results for example) AND (very important) do so for an extreme amount of years and stand the test of time without variation.

The reason evolution is just a theory is because unless you actually witness something evolve, it can't be perfectly proven. Even though scientific breakthroughs in genetics and other fields make evolution the most plausible explanation, it can't be perfectly proven.

That being said, I believe that evolution is the only logical explanation, however in my opinion evolution doesn't rule out god or any other intangible idea of a supreme being(s).

That's my opinion on the matter. I don't prescribe to organized religion though I do consider myself as a member of the Episcopal Church but that isn't because I think that's the right interpretation of God, it's just a fmaily/tradition thing.

If you ask me, if there is a God why the f*** would he care what people do here. One person killing someone or even multiple people affect nothing in the grand scheme of the universe so I doubt he cares. I believe you shouldn't take the bible as fact, but within the Bible are great moral guidelines(and some things not so moral but morality and ethics are subjective so I guess not of that could make any sense)

tl;dr: I'm f***ing awesome.
PSN: Ellis4Life

User Info: PadreV

PadreV
6 years ago#38
Evolution =/= natural adaptation

And as I said, no one has ever provided definitive proof of either THEORY, so the debate will be endless.

There are many, many scientific facts that are proven and can be proven through experiment over and over and over. I will never argue with those proven facts.

Fact: dinosaurs existed
Fact: plate tectonics cause earthquakes
Fact: volcanic activity is related to plate tectonics and can cause earthquakes
Fact: Sly Ravage is a beast with the Fareye
Fact: PadreV can readily identify and use most small arms manufactured in the last 100yrs

I will never argue proven facts. Evolution is still just a theory. There is no evidence to it's truth any more than there is to Creation. You say it's all around us. Well, I've never seen a damn thing 'evolve' in my lifetime... be it via mass media report or in recorded history's written record. The excuse used is, "it takes millions of years for it to happen". Well, fine. That still doesn't prove anything. If it is true, if may never be proven in our lifetimes.

I'm not saying it's false. I can't prove it is or isn't. Neither can you, or anyone else, prove that Creation is true or false. That be fact.

Prove me wrong, and I'll concede.
Educato est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis. Si vis pacem, para bellum.

User Info: SirDan88

SirDan88
6 years ago#39
What makes a scientific theory a theory is that fact that it CANNOT be proven wrong either. Other wise it'd be the Hypothesis of Evolution. Just thought I'd add that.
PSN: Ellis4Life

User Info: sly_1

sly_1
6 years ago#40
The reason evolution is just a theory is because unless you actually witness something evolve, it can't be perfectly proven. Even though scientific breakthroughs in genetics and other fields make evolution the most plausible explanation, it can't be perfectly proven.

What you say is without a doubt true.
Evolution is still a theory. But (there is always this but), as you also said: a very plausible one.

And the reason this theory is so plausible, and pretty much one of the only logical explanations as you also agreed on, is because a minor percentage of it HAS been proved. Like you said, it hasn't been perfectly proved.
For instance: Birds. They do not fly because they have anti-gravitational superpowers. No, they fly due their wings. A cause of evolution, forcing the animal to adapt to its environment, giving it the capability of flight.

Proved, but because there is so much, this is only a fraction of the theory.
I hope this is something we can agree on, yes?

That being said, I believe that evolution is the only logical explanation, however in my opinion evolution doesn't rule out god or any other intangible idea of a supreme being(s).

Exactly how I used to be.
I used to, in my childhood, believe in god despite being a "man of evolution", so to say.
However, in my course of life, I developed the thought that god hated me. Therefor, I hated him back. It's not until after growing up more, that I realized I was hating nothing, and that nothing hated me, because there was nothing there. Because everything in my life was caused by other humans and actions caused by myself, obviously.

I have simply learned that: it's all between the ears.

Edit:
I'm not saying it's false. I can't prove it is or isn't. Neither can you, or anyone else, prove that Creation is true or false. That be fact.

Yes, but I'm not talking about creation.
Creation is, like I said, still a guess. They have things pointing in that direction but no actual facts. Their "evidence" is just in large quantities making it for a quite plausible explanation.

And as you said, evolution does take millions of years. Or at least, a lot of years.
Can't they prove that evolution takes this long? I recall they can.

Adaptation is part of evolution.
It's just your point of view...I suppose.

Oh, I could go for a chilled drink with a nice talk Padre.
I always like to talk. I think you'd be surprised how talking can affect me.
Resistance 2 [WTF] Clan Comic: http://tinyurl.com/6b3f939
PSN: Sly_08 [WTF] (leader); Happily Disturbed; King of all Trades.

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