If its true that DX12 update will double the XB1 graphics and performance

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User Info: SoulTrapper

3 years ago#91
Sin_Angelus_ posted...

Actually, you did say that it wouldn't change anything, or "won't do much of anything", both of which are wrong. And that's pretty significant since you like to nitpick over wording.

You were claiming DX 12 would let xbox "close the gap" with the ps4 in that topic.

The comments about how it won't do anything are about how it won't do anything to close the gap with the ps4 BECAUSE THE HARDWARE DISADVANTAGE.
Which DX12 won't change anything to.

Software updates don't change the difference between the hardware in both consoles, hence why it won't change anything for xbox one in that context.

So, once again: I'll post the reason why the xbox hardware will always be behind the ps4 hardware and why no DX12, 13 or 14 will change this in a post below this.
Then go ahead and prove how DX12 will change anything to that.

And again, as a lot of people have also pointed out in this topic: consoles don't have much overhead, a new API won't make much difference.

I think you're confusing "improving" with "changing". Of course DX12 will not physically change the hardware, but it certainly will improve it by making it run more efficiently. I'm not sure why you're still splitting hairs over this, other than to cover up the fact that you were clearly wrong about DX12 "not changing anything."

No, you clearly said in the other topic that DX 12 would improve the xbox hardware.

DX12 won't change anything to the hardware, which is what you claimed.

Here's the topic, go back and read what you posted:


Especially the part where you claim hardware can be improved upon through software updates.

But it's good to see you acknowledging your mistake and accepting that better hardware=better hardware and that this won't be changed by a software update.

Actually it does. One article I posted quoted another while making it's own separate points. The other 4 were perfectly valid, whether you want them to be or not. That makes me more correct.

No, because again, you were making the idiotic claim that DX12 would upgrade xbox hardware to help it "close the gap" with the ps4.

Sin_Angelus_ posted...

You mean that same stuff you had been repeating the entire topic? Why would I respond to that again? I heard you out, and made a counter-argument showing the long-term benefits of ESRAM and how devs were starting to get used to it and even praise it. It's pointless to keep going back and forth when you literally posted the same link 3 times in separate posts. And you didn't make any new points or prove anything past your own opinion and speculation, so I let you keep talking and moved on.

No, I mean the stuff I'll post below this.
You left that topic because you had no actual reply to it.

No one really does, because it's the truth and it identifies the biggest issue the xbox has and will have this entire console generation

User Info: SoulTrapper

3 years ago#92
The biggest issue with the xbox isn't the GPU, it's the eSRAM.

The main barrier that is breakable is ESRAM design.
All 3D hardware except PS1 and nintendo DS need at least three "bitmaps" stored on the memory (they're actually quite a LOT similar to a windows bitmap, except no header).
Those are the backbuffer, front buffer and Zbuffer.

The backbuffer is where the GPU draw the current frame, frontbuffer is a copy of the last backbuffer that is feed to the circuitry that sends the picture to the screen, and the zbuffer is a map of the depth of every pixel, that is used to cheaply sort the triangles and allow geometry intersection etc..

In the case of the Xbone, at least the backbuffer and the Zbuffer must be stored on the ESRAM because the regular memory is just too slow to make that role effectively, and well, a 1080p HDR backbuffer requires 16 MB of memory, plus the 8 used by the Z-buffer and suddently you only have 8MB of fast memory for all the rendering purposes, and this is quite short when you're using stuff like 4096x4096 textures and millions of polygons.

The easiest cop out out of this is of course setting a lower resolution to leave more ESRAM space for the game, but you also can do stuff like rendering half of the screen then the other half, or not using HDR, or going zbufferless etc...

Meanwhile on PS4, no juggling around is needed as all the memory is the fast memory.

They're the same memory format, though GDDR is designed for very high bandwidth at the expense of latency, whilst DDR3 aims for low latency at the expense for high bandwidth.

The thing is, DDR3 is not good for storing graphics assets and game data, which works best off of GDDR memory because of the high bandwidth.

To compensate for that, MIcrosoft used eSRAM which offers the very high bandwidth that GDDR5 is known for. However, there's only 32MB of it, which simply isn't enough and no amount of polished SDK, better drivers, and more lower-level access courtesy of Microsoft's SDK is going to fix the fundamental fact that physically, in terms of what is on the chip--isn't enough to match what the PS4 has.

The Xbox One even with its weaker CPU may have been able to compete with the ps4 and render games at 1080p IF the APU had 48 or even 64MB of eSRAM.

But it doesn't and it never will; which will be its Achilles heel as the generation lifespan increases.

There's one other MAJOR problem with the XB1.

The Data Move Engines that MS incorporated into the APU that sit between the DDR3 and the eSRAM.

Whenever data needs to be transferred from DDR3 to eSRAM, the data has to utilize these move engines, which eats up 8GB/s of bandwidth.

So your DDR3 in the XB1 which was sitting at 68GB/s, now suddenly is doing 60GB/s and the 172GB/s you were getting with the eSRAM is now getting 164GB/s.

Which is basically creating latency during data transfers between two memory pools, and when you're rendering stuff with a lot of physics and player input, that latency is an absolute nightmare.

PS4 doesn't have these latency issues because there's only ONE memory pool, not two and furthermore, the PS4 doesn't need to rely on additional circuitry to move data around.

The whole data move engines are brilliant from a set-top-box console that can decrpyt loads of media and interface with cable perspective + kinect camera.

But it's a colossal waste for gaming.

User Info: lilj812

3 years ago#93
Any more questions? Ahhh, sweet knowledge.
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User Info: GamerRaf

3 years ago#94
It'll be slightly better then it is now but the PS4 will still be better.
"Lets release a console with no games and no marketing." -Satoru Iwata, 2012

User Info: krillens

3 years ago#95
fool you once... shame on them..

fool you twice... shame on you

cloud = fail
esram = fail
kinnect = fail

are people really that stupid to fall for another MS marketing scam for FOUR TIMES?!
i7-2700K @ 3.5ghz | 8GB DDR3 | NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 | 250GB SSD
PS4 | Wii U | 3DS

User Info: Zerabp

3 years ago#96
krillens posted...
fool you once... shame on them..

fool you twice... shame on you

cloud = fail
esram = fail
kinnect = fail

are people really that stupid to fall for another MS marketing scam for FOUR TIMES?!

This topic's existence unfortunately answers your question.
XBL Gamertag:SentinelZ PSnetwork ID: SentinelZ
"Bloody wars are easier to survive than idiots with ballots. " Neal Boortz

User Info: unclekoolaid73

3 years ago#97
Soul Trapper do you ever get tired of being right all the time? /no sarcasm intended

User Info: U_WOT_M8

3 years ago#98
It's really funny seeing the Microsoft Defense Force out in their prime today. Sharing facts that dare go against their console is deemed fanboyism or trolling.
(message deleted)

User Info: OpheliaAdenade

3 years ago#100
Sinizta03 posted...
krillens posted...
fool you once... shame on them..

fool you twice... shame on you

cloud = fail
esram = fail
kinnect = fail

are people really that stupid to fall for another MS marketing scam for FOUR TIMES?!
I hate to say it but anybody who willingly supports Microsoft and their dirty practices can't be too bright. They have repeatedly tried to screw their own consumer base ( saying things like people weren't "ready for their future" is the same as calling their own fans morons and even hinted they will attempt those same policies again in the future ). They lock basic things behind a paywall and even have paywalls behind paywalls (lol wtf) and people still find a reason to defend them. They stop giving a crap about their own console about halfway through its lifespan while Nintendo and Sony keep giving their fans great and varied games. It's pretty embarrassing as an American that so many of my countrymen support that company.

Despite this, I do feel a bit bad for them. :s MS keeps playing with their hearts, getting their hopes up with their empty promises, and then time passes without anything manifesting. We're still waiting on the power of the cloud to show up. :x God knows when they'll "unlock the power hidden in the eSRAM" or eSCAM as I like to call it.
They say she's low down, but it's just a rumor I don't believe 'em.
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