Why Team Ninja keep giving Irene cameos

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User Info: gumx

gumx
2 years ago#11
wait ayane has a special ability other than the exploding kunai? she doesn't get much love in this game. she should be given cicada surge of some type.

i do like the spread of weapons idea. i just don't see momiji wielding tonfas for some reason. or ayane with the lunar staff. i see ayane with tonfas. momiji with emmas fang. since ayane is a speed character with light weapons i think. momiji with double handed weapons.

i think falcon talons are the closest hand to hand combat we may ever get.

maybe if TN wants to take it slow. at least balance the characters more then. maybe with a better moveset for killing all the bosses. so you could use your favorite weapon/character in ultimate trials and be a bit more successful. unless your one of the best ng players out there who could use any weapon easily to take down all the bosses in UN mode.

maybe its just my problem. but i think they must buff

ayane: more killing power and a few more options to hit bosses without getting hit.
kasumi: same as ayane.
talons: same as ayane.
dual katana: what happened? it was so OP in NGS2. over here plastic swords

User Info: chaosinfusion

chaosinfusion
2 years ago#12
gumx posted...
[Ayane] should be given cicada surge of some type.

Yes! Give Ayane the surge! With some sort of unique spin on it along the lines of Kasumi's teleport. Maybe it finishes with a counterattack for a OHKO backstab vs humanoid targets and guaranteed delimb vs larger targets. Just make it great, Team Ninja!

Yeah - that was a seat-of-the-pants list. I was generally going for at least one close-quarters weapon and one with a little more reach, but you make some very good points. I would be thrilled to have the option of playing Ayane+Tonfa and Momiji+Enmas. (Tengu brothers beware! ;-))

Maybe the right secondary for Ayane isn't in the game yet - how about a nice Tokkosho for her? It's already in the lore (and fan art)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ornafGsvQjs
http://bstylez.deviantart.com/art/Ayane-Tokkosho-Basic-484158629

maybe if TN wants to take it slow. at least balance the characters more then. maybe with a better moveset for killing all the bosses. so you could use your favorite weapon/character in ultimate trials and be a bit more successful. unless your one of the best ng players out there who could use any weapon easily to take down all the bosses in UN mode.

Ha! Not hardly. Amateur student of the game with occasional delusions of grandeur, more like - I still have plenty to learn.

"Balance" is a tricky line to walk - should the other weapons be given a game-breaking combo to put them on par with the Scythe? Or should the go-to game-breaking combo be nerfed so that it is no longer possible to essentially bypass the learning curve of how to deal with the bosses' AIs?

I probably gravitate toward the latter because I find it a bit dull when success in trials and boss fights is essentially reduced to one go-to formula.

I'm not 100% convinced that the necessary ingredients for success with other weapons aren't already present, but this could be the ignorance talking as I've barely scratched the surface on some of their movesets. I am probably most at home with Kasumi's at the moment - there is no doubt that she can hold her own with all of the bosses, and her effectiveness increases considerably with practice and experimentation. It seems likely that it would be similar for all of the weapons.

If true, maybe part of the solution should include better training opportunities to increase our chances of discovering viable alternatives. Speculation as to what this might look like would take us even further off-topic, so I'll leave it at that for now.

(Sorry, Irene - may I just say I was amused by your banter with Ayane in RE, and thought the bazooka suited you in S2,Ch9. What is it with you and blowing things up?)

maybe its just my problem. but i think they must buff

ayane: more killing power and a few more options to hit bosses without getting hit.
kasumi: same as ayane.

This may sound a bit crazy, but these two feel pretty balanced to me - I prefer speed over power, and am willing to make that tradeoff. That said, perhaps more canceling and i-frame opportunities could help expand their playstyle options a bit.

talons: same as ayane.
dual katana: what happened? it was so OP in NGS2. over here plastic swords

Totally agree on these. They removed my favorite move in Sigma 2 (especially vs. IS ninjas and mages): running-jump TST w/ Talons was basically a Flying Swallow that swoops directly into an Izuna Drop. Very weird choice to leave it out, which I hope is reversed in NG4. The closest I could find in Razor's Edge (so far) is Ayane's running-jump TT into Izuna.

Dual Katana wasn't broken. Why did TN "fix" it? Could their reasoning be story-related? Technically, Ryu is using a different katana pairing this time around. (Not saying this is a good reason.)

User Info: gumx

gumx
2 years ago#13
Tokkosho... that weapon is awesome but its too awesome that it becomes DLC along with the costume ;)

i am sorry to say sir but you are wrong when it comes to my skill and knowledge :)
edit: not saying im a pro/expert but i know am not a amateur student in NG3RE (:
maybe i worded wrong. maybe i should say first is TN should create master 21-25 as mentor 21-25 because i need practice with harder bosses to test out other weapons to figure the best way to defeat them.

we or at least i don't need a spamming 360T scythe. i need weapon/character with some safe approaches and swift killing of the bosses. and do damage equal to other weapons. because some moves just do scratches and they are the strong moves not the normal weak ones. the claws strongest move deals great damage but is unsafe to do in most situations. and when playing a UN it is going to be hard to pull it off during chaos. but yeah i do agree that it does a bit boring when there is only one method to beat bosses in trials. i see that the scythe, staff, and momiji are the best. with momiji being the best IMO unlike her NGS2 version...

now that i think about it... i think i should have said all weapons must be able to kill any boss without any trouble for the person who is very skilled in that weapon/character. because i must say some bosses are very hard to take down with claws and dual sword.

i think for me ayane would be usable in UN trials if she has a form of cicada surge, meditation that heals partner (cmon the only female who can't?), and a faster FS. i forgot to mention that ayane + + dual katana + KG should be able to pull off a izuna on genshin with the basic STSSST/STTST. Since genshin is like the most recycled boss in NT.

i totally agree with you more i-frame moves for the both of them.

dual katana... i see now. but the 360T no more i-frames and doesn't even hit hard so i say it is still weak. maybe the weakest weapon in the game in terms of damage output without UT.
edit: ayane hits harder and faster. no reason to use dual katana except for cicada.

maybe just in general for me alexi needs to be nerfed that hero mode like dodging. makes me don't want to use most weapons against him if hes present in that trial.

User Info: chaosinfusion

chaosinfusion
2 years ago#14
gumx posted...
i am sorry to say sir but you are wrong when it comes to my skill and knowledge :)
edit: not saying im a pro/expert but i know am not a amateur student in NG3RE (:

I should clarify. I did not intend "amateur" with its negative meaning of "sloppy" or "unskilled", but rather in the sense of doing something for pleasure instead of financial gain. I didn't mean to understate anyone's skill, least of all yours - sorry if it came across that way. After all, amateurs sometimes exceed their professional counterparts. ;-)

(For reference purposes, I recently cleared my first solo MN trial with Kasumi. Hence, "plenty to learn." A 100% solo completion rate may be unrealistic, but I don't expect to run out of trials... or kunoichi any time soon.)

TN should create master 21-25 as mentor 21-25 because i need practice with harder bosses to test out other weapons to figure the best way to defeat them.

This is what I was hinting at with "better training opportunities". A proper training mode would allow players to:

- design custom trial waves,
- turn on infinite retries,
- adjust the AI-difficulty level,
- access the techniques list (w/o obscuring the combat zone, please!),
- start a trial from any wave,
- train solo or with a partner,
- (on pressing "Start" to exit) have more options than "return to title screen", including "restart current wave/trial", and "change trial",
- select Tests of Valor from the Ninja Trials menu (unlockable?)

With this infrastructure in place, you'd be able to set the AI for Mentor 21-25 to anything from Acolyte to Ultimate. Or create a custom one-wave Liz-only trial, and repeat as needed, starting with lower difficulty and working your way up. You'd also be able to open the techniques list to find moves you haven't tried yet.

It's not about making the game easier, it's about respecting the player's time. Who wants to clear the first half of Day 8 and multiple ToV waves for one(!) try vs. MN Fiend Genshin in single combat?

I have a theory that one reason weapons can feel inaccessible and/or underpowered in UN is that players tend to advance too soon - i.e., before mastering the game in Normal/Hard/MN. Sometimes the weapon really is underpowered, but UN is too unforgiving to be a suitable proving ground.

[Ayane] ... faster FS. i forgot to mention that ayane + + dual katana + KG should be able to pull off a izuna on genshin with the basic STSSST/STTST.

I know, right? I still open the moves list from time to time with the idea of finally discovering the secret Ayane combo that can ID Genshin. So far... nothing. It feels out-of-character for Ayane not to be able to FS into an on-landing hold-T/charge without recovering. It's particularly disorienting if switching from Kasumi where it's a valuable part of her moveset.

Speaking of the Izuna, why does Kasumi's do so little damage to Clone Ryu? It's more risky to pull off than against Genshin; the reward (damage) ought to be commensurate with the risk IMO.

now that i think about it... i think i should have said all weapons must be able to kill any boss without any trouble for the person who is very skilled in that weapon/character

Well-stated. TN should print this out and post it where the development team is forced to look at it every day. ;-)

dual katana... i see now. but the 360T no more i-frames and doesn't even hit hard so i say it is still weak.

I should have said "Dual Katana wasn't broken in NGS2." It's possible I just didn't properly exploit it there, but to me it felt powerful without crossing the line of breaking the game and didn't really need rebalancing.

User Info: gumx

gumx
2 years ago#15
thanks for the clarification (:
sorry for the misunderstanding.

nice job though on soloing MN trial with kasumi. mind if i ask which? i feel MN01 MN02, and MN04 is the easiest for kasumi to solo.

with that list i think TN should hire you for your ideas :) knowing the players needs to get skilled 101

quick SPOILER of NT... you can play MN08 and beat the 1st wave then F.Genshin will be alone one on one in the 2nd wave ;) thats how i trained for F.Genshin. and if you beat him then your one step closer to soloing MN08

IMO part of that theory is correct and i think players tend to follow the "best weapon/easiest weapon to pick up and learn" trend and may abuse some moves...

to answer kasumi's izuna problem with clone ryu. well i think its because ryu's izuna doesn't hit that hard either. if you want a loop i think u should try ST wait for him to drop ST...repeat. or without a loop "mini combo" ST wait for him to drop STSSS wait for him to drop STSSST. use broken wheel as your izuna since multiple hits = more ninpo.

to lower your risk in going for the izuna. you could try doing S if it hits him and he loses life and get stunned/flinch then wait split second and attempt an izuna on him. you can do this to genshin too for safety and an extra hit to the combo ;)

about the dual katanas its TTTT on alexi does a ridiculously great amount of damage it feels OP to me. since i could hardly hit alexi in NG3RE

User Info: chaosinfusion

chaosinfusion
2 years ago#16
Thanks! - it was MN09. Came down to the wire against the second Alma spawn. Her first pink projectile attack connected during recovery (might have been a lapse between dashes). One more hit would have been game-over for Kasumi, but she somehow managed to evade several more volleys of pink spam from Alma, then connected an FS and looped her way to victory. It could have been cleaner, but no retry, so I'll take it. :-)

Hey, do you know of a good way to guarantee that auto-aim will target projectile-tossing enemies up on the scaffolding in this arena? One of the issues I have with MN09 (and other trials in this location) is getting the kunai *not* to aim at the boss, even when the camera is unlocked. Drives me nuts.

You're right, of course - MN08 is a much more efficient way to practice MN F. Genshin - a little dramatic license for effect there. ;-) It's still time consuming to have to fight through a wave of fodder though, just to get two tries against him. I've gotten past him a couple of times, only to get clobbered by Marbus while trying to deal with his minions. Should be do-able along the lines of Leader08, but Marbus excels at spoiling otherwise good runs.

I will try with Dual Katana against Alexei in the other game. (I've cleared MN story over there, but need to finish up chapter challenge mode.) In previous encounters, I've used Talons on him. Level 4 DS isn't bad either IIRC.

Interesting combo idea on Clone Ryu. Pretty cool if ST can loop him. You're right - one should prioritize ki regen in this case. I tend to forget about that property because I like the animation for the forward-T version of her throw so much, but there's no point going for damage since it won't do that much anyway.

I'm still trying to work out a fool-proof pattern for Liz and Alexei in NG3RE - there *has* to be one, right? Kasumi's SSTT does some nice damage against both when they are vulnerable - that final 'T' is awesome. I just wish there were a way to cancel out of it once she's airborne - especially vs Liz. Maybe it's possible to apply your single 'S' test before initiating the longer combo - all too often I end up overcommitting too early and get soundly punished for the transgression.

Anyway, I appreciate the tips!

User Info: gumx

gumx
2 years ago#17
no problem any time (:

nice! i hate her spamming those pink fire balls but especially in tight spaces.

the auto-aim sucks just like the camera IMO. but for me i just stand on the opposite side and against the wall or close to it. for me it usually aims correctly. bad luck will end up at alma while shes flying in at you.

MN08 for this trial it is best to keep a lock on on him for the aiming at the rocket guys. taking them out while running miles around the whole stage. let those two fiends come at you. you focus on "cheap shotting" them by FS, or a holdT move for i-frames, or UT when you get it from enough rocket guys. rinse and repeat until its just you and marbus 1v1. i think more fiends will come out when marbus dies so make sure to charge UT near their spawn point. or aim for the rocket guys safe bet.

hitting alexi with TTTT lvl 4 dual katana is probably the most damaging thing we could to to a boss that isn't a loop or a instakill glitch.

that loop does work on evil/clone ryu... at least on the wiiU version... the board is dead so i come over here :). not the ryu where you can SOB its going to work to some extent. i like doing forward T too because its faster and cooler IMO. another loop you could do on clone ryu is just S. make sure you time each of your S so don't accidentally do SS. you have to be consistent in pressing. you could also do STSSS loop. i haven't tried STSSSS since it works on alma.

i think everyone needs a air cicada of some sort to cancel or a shuriken cancel with i-frames mid air. alexi no clue. reason why i don't use kasumi. liz i try to avoid using kasumi for her either but... what should be noted is that liz will take i think the first 3 hits and liz will get flinched/stunned after that better get cicada ready. you could try to aim the running hold T to do the first hit then do TholdT to seal the deal. this work only on mentor liz. didn't really test on UN liz. or try forward SSTholdT to get the i-frames ready. though it may be reckless and crazy but while liz is air born you may test to see if SSTTT will work on her or just flat out FS her or go up to her and do XT and hopefully she won't dodge it.

User Info: dragonfruit152

dragonfruit152
2 years ago#18
Were getting off topic this is about Irene. Yes Ayane is a bad ass shes not going any where she will be in every game playable. Can we discuss Irene now sheesh

User Info: dragonfruit152

dragonfruit152
2 years ago#19
If you would like to see Irene playable in DOA or NG please tweet Team Ninja. Keep in mind they give her cameos in NG3 there was no need too. A brand new hd model for Irene was made for a 2 minute cutscene. Team Ninja is fond of her dont you think? Follow my twitter guys https://twitter.com/AgentSeaSwallow
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